Don't work in the industry if you are unwilling to take shifts: TSMC Chair

[Fred Chen]

https://focustaiwan.tw/business/202306070023

TSMC gets flak about employee treatment in the US, following a Fortune article quoting Glassdoor feedback.

The Fortune piece cited several former and current employees in the United States complaining about TSMC's "brutal" corporate culture on Glassdoor, a U.S. site that lets members anonymously review corporate companies.

In August, one engineer wrote that some employees "slept in the office for a month straight. Twelve-hour days are standard, weekend shifts are common. I cannot stress ... how brutal the work-life balance is here."

In January, another employee wrote that TSMC was "about obedience [and is] not ready for America."

Responding to the reviews to local press on Tuesday, Liu said TSMC did not ask U.S. employees to conform to the same work culture standards observed in Taiwan, adding that work environment expectations are open for discussion as long as everyone abides by the core company values of TSMC.

"Those who are unwilling to take shifts should not enter the industry [semiconductor manufacturing]," Liu went on to add, "since this field isn't just about lucrative wages but rather a passion for it."

 

[Tanj]

"since this field isn't just about lucrative wages but rather a passion for it."

A company making billions in profits asking employees to have passion should be rewarding them lucratively. Unfortunately, "but rather" has a standard meaning quite the opposite, of only hiring those whose passion can be taken advantage of.

The management of the company have the responsibility to satisfy both goals - putting people to work on things they can be passionate about, and ensuring the company rewards them for it. That is their duty, as serious as the duty of passion and commitment they ask of the employees.

I've recommended a few young people to look at semiconductors for a career. Smart people. And they look at the alternative uses of their talents and do not see it offering a rewarding career. Requiring an advanced degree in a STEM subject means targetting a set of students with many choices. Just sprinkling a little money on training programs is not going to change enrollments, unless the industry ensures they have a positive outreach on career goals. Even in Taiwan the press comments on how this is changing.

The companies who understand this will do just fine in semiconductor manufacturing in the USA in this next era. The Taiwan that nurtured TSMC was a miracle which will not be repeated, and even in Taiwan will have to change. Scale and success changes corporations.

 

[Brady]

A company making billions in profits asking employees to have passion should be rewarding them lucratively.

This is what I don’t understand about fab engineering/technicians and their pay.

I work in software and have a real passion for it… but software pays well in exchange for my passion.

Now, I get the ruthless margins on the processes that a commodities, but for the leading edge? TSMC is making literal world-leading profit margins — approaching software companies at times! — and they have the audacity to think they’re going to find people who simply will trade their lives for no return except “passion”?

Yikes. I think they’ll learn quickly that’s not going to fly in the US, especially with the better employee-rated Intel just down the road and hiring…

 

[Mooredaddy]

This is what I don’t understand about fab engineering/technicians and their pay.

I work in software and have a real passion for it… but software pays well in exchange for my passion.

Now, I get the ruthless margins on the processes that a commodities, but for the leading edge? TSMC is making literal world-leading profit margins — approaching software companies at times! — and they have the audacity to think they’re going to find people who simply will trade their lives for no return except “passion”?

Yikes. I think they’ll learn quickly that’s not going to fly in the US, especially with the better employee-rated Intel just down the road and hiring…

Yeah I agree the mentality is bs. There has to be a middle ground here. People need to be paid well. This “passion” narrative is absurd

 

[nghanayem]

Yeah I agree the mentality is bs. There has to be a middle ground here. People need to be paid well. This “passion” narrative is absurd

Aren’t they already though? I could be wrong but I am pretty sure semi jobs pay well above market rates in TW. I think I heard TSMC gets away with a bit less than UMC because there isn’t the presige aspect but I wouldn’t double down on either my memory or the claim itself.

Considering the median pay for new engineers with BSs is in the low 60k range (and believe me I have seen plenty of jobs in the 55k range) the reported US pay at TSMC seems reasonable.

 

[Xebec]

It sounds like an interesting side effect of TSMC Fabs in the US is that eventually those working in the Taiwan fabs will be upset about having ‘worse’ working conditions than those in the US.

 

[count]

Considering the median pay for new engineers with BSs is in the low 60k range (and believe me I have seen plenty of jobs in the 55k range) the reported US pay at TSMC seems reasonable.

Maybe in low cost of living areas. But pointing to low salaries and saying it’s enough misses the point because most new engineers are not going into manufacturing period. Because why would they with salaries that low compared to tech?

 

[blueone]

Aren’t they already though? I could be wrong but I am pretty sure semi jobs pay well above market rates in TW. I think I heard TSMC gets away with a bit less than UMC because there isn’t the presige aspect but I wouldn’t double down on either my memory or the claim itself.

Considering the median pay for new engineers with BSs is in the low 60k range (and believe me I have seen plenty of jobs in the 55k range) the reported US pay at TSMC seems reasonable.

Your estimate looks low. Median entry level ChemE salaries with a BS degree, for example, appear to be at $82K, with the 25th percentile at $76K. I don't know what silly companies are posting entry-level jobs for the $55-$60K, but I bet they don't get many applicants. Where did you get your data?

I'm sure that Intel's and Samsung's entry-level offers are significantly higher than the median. TSMC has to compete with those two.

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[nghanayem]

Your estimate looks low. Median entry level ChemE salaries with a BS degree, for example, appear to be at $82K, with the 25th percentile at $76K. I don't know what silly companies are posting entry-level jobs for the $55-$60K, but I bet they don't get many applicants. Where did you get your data?

I'm sure that Intel's and Samsung's entry-level offers are significantly higher than the median. TSMC has to compete with those two.

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I was doing a 2:1 weighted avg for MechEs to ChemEs for process engineers (with EEs landing somewhere in the middle) based on the 10th percentile values given by the U.S. Bureau of labor stats data to approximate entry level positions.

https://www.careeronestop.org/Toolkit/Wages/find-salary.aspx

Looking on glassdoor for intel, Samsung Austin, Micron, and GF, the low end fab related engineer salaries are reported to be in the mid 60s to mid 70s.

 

[hist78]

Yeah I agree the mentality is bs. There has to be a middle ground here. People need to be paid well. This “passion” narrative is absurd

A long lasting great company always needs well compensated employees who have passion on their works and on their company.

When time is bad, due to economy downturn, market crash, or competitor's superior products, passion is even more important than anything else.

 

[benb]

A few things to keep in mind:
Operations salaries are related to what you do. If you take your salary away, something important won’t be done. So the salary has some protection from downsizing. On the other hand, it is also built into the per-chip COGS. The justification for the salary is some job that must be done, for a chip to be manufactured.
There is a layer of management over operations, that doesn’t have any justification, that, to me, is parasitic; the SG&A layer. These people take a cut of the pie, rather than contribute to it by their labor.
The language from the SG&A side is always the same; “passion” or “efficiency” or “teamwork”, etc. They are motivated to grow the pie, to benefit the shareholders. While the labor folks, many of whom think of themselves, incorrectly, as management, have other motivations.
This is a normal part of life, this split, but I never hear very good justifications for the SG&A people, and I wonder if you could just get rid of those people, have less discussion about “passion”, and more people available to cover the necessary jobs.

 

[Jozo035]

What is character of work on position they are looking for? Crunching numbers/statistics, observing process, making/consulting small changes? It is quite difficult to find passion in that.

If You have real passion for industry then You are probably working for any consulting company (or other supporting roles) or in startups where you have to be passionate and you are notoriously underpaid Off course, there are exception, but sooner or later You will find Yourself "tied" by responsibilities that are limiting what You want to do.

I think this is one of differences between east and west. Large state affiliated company where failure is not an option and so You have to give 110% versus relatively "lazy" approach here where failure is more acceptable.

And off course, this might not be rule universally and You will find exception, but still, TSMC is question of national security. Samsung too. Intel of US? Probably not that critical.

 

[Xebec]

This is a normal part of life, this split, but I never hear very good justifications for the SG&A people, and I wonder if you could just get rid of those people, have less discussion about “passion”, and more people available to cover the necessary jobs.

I think this is really a discussion of the quality of those individuals in those positions. People in middle management can either be good enablers of teams — making sure they have access to learning opportunities, mentoring, remove/reduce roadblocks, finding them backups/delegates when appropriate, etc. Or they can be worse than parasitic - such as when they step on each other selfishly in department wars. (Even worse good people can switch to parasitic or detrimental if they get burnt out in their role and don’t have a new challenge/interest after a certain amount of time).

Some team members never hear anything when a leader says ‘you did a good job’, and others are much more positively affected by this kind of language. If you have no management or poor management then you can very easily reduce productivity. Lastly middle management should be blocking and tackling enough ‘escalation’ so senior leadership can focus on strategy.

Unfortunately these things rarely work as well as they should but I think wiping out the middle management and then rebuilding is an “ok” or even good strategy, but wiping out indefinitely can ultimately result in higher employee turnover. (“I don’t know who my manager is, they never talk to me, the company doesn’t even think about me / care about me”).

 

[soAsian]

This is what I don’t understand about fab engineering/technicians and their pay.

I work in software and have a real passion for it… but software pays well in exchange for my passion.

Now, I get the ruthless margins on the processes that a commodities, but for the leading edge? TSMC is making literal world-leading profit margins — approaching software companies at times! — and they have the audacity to think they’re going to find people who simply will trade their lives for no return except “passion”?

Yikes. I think they’ll learn quickly that’s not going to fly in the US, especially with the better employee-rated Intel just down the road and hiring…

Chinese techs is famous for pushing 996 (9am to 9pm 6 days)

while Taiwan is not China, the work culture is similar.

the running joke on TSMC in Taiwan is

十萬青年十萬肝，輪班救台灣​

100,000 youths, 100,000 livers, working shifts to save Taiwan

 

[tooLongInEDA]

What is character of work on position they are looking for? Crunching numbers/statistics, observing process, making/consulting small changes? It is quite difficult to find passion in that.

If You have real passion for industry then You are probably working for any consulting company (or other supporting roles) or in startups where you have to be passionate and you are notoriously underpaid Off course, there are exception, but sooner or later You will find Yourself "tied" by responsibilities that are limiting what You want to do.

I think this is one of differences between east and west. Large state affiliated company where failure is not an option and so You have to give 110% versus relatively "lazy" approach here where failure is more acceptable.

And off course, this might not be rule universally and You will find exception, but still, TSMC is question of national security. Samsung too. Intel of US? Probably not that critical.

Start-ups, yes. But not convinced that most consultants have a "real passion for industry". In my experience, people who do are getting their hands dirty doing the actual work. Consultants also lack the direct tie to the success or failure of what they do that makes work meaningful and real.

 

[blueone]

Start-ups, yes. But not convinced that most consultants have a "real passion for industry". In my experience, people who do are getting their hands dirty doing the actual work. Consultants also lack the direct tie to the success or failure of what they do that makes work meaningful and real.

Exactly. I tried consulting once, and that's what I hated about it. Never again.

 

[quantumdot]

Having worked at various major fabs, I can say that tsmc works on a different level altogether. Being the industry leader doesn't come easy. tsmc is an extremely well oiled machine. Individual contributions are coordinated really well to put into the bigger picture. If US wants to bring semi manufacturing into the country, working hard for it just a start.

 

[Jozo035]

Why did You hire consultant, which has no passion for what he is doing?

And sorry, i probably used wrong wording. But still, working in production is boring. I can understand passion in areas like that in engineering or r&d... But it might be just my ignorance.

Chinese techs is famous for pushing 996 (9am to 9pm 6 days)

while Taiwan is not China, the work culture is similar.

the running joke on TSMC in Taiwan is

十萬青年十萬肝，輪班救台灣​

100,000 youths, 100,000 livers, working shifts to save Taiwan

996 led to "lay flat" and "let it rot" subcultures...