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Most upcoming Arrow Lake CPUs will leverage TSMC nodes for compute, Intel 20A only for Core i5 and lower: Leak

Daniel Nenni

Admin
Staff member
Pat and Wafers 2024.jpg


Long-time PC hardware leaker Golden Pig Upgrade has made a slew of predictions for Intel's upcoming Arrow Lake CPUs (via VideoCardz). Some of the claims are easy to believe, such as Arrow Lake lacking support for DDR4 and only having the weakest iGPU that's currently paired with current-generation Meteor Lake chips. However, Golden Pig Upgrade also says Arrow Lake won't have hyper-threading, and most models won't be made at Intel; instead, they rely on TSMC's processes.

The leaker's Bilibili post is written in Chinese, and since the standard Google-translated text actually leaves out the part about hyper-threading entirely, we'll be relying on VideoCardz's translation. Golden Pig Upgrade makes eight individual claims about Arrow Lake, ranging from unsurprising to almost contradictory to what we thought we knew.

Five of these claims are pretty easy to believe: Arrow Lake will be branded Series 2, it won't support DDR4, it doesn't have low-power E-cores, it only has four Xe cores, and the higher-end SKUs won't be PCH-free. We already knew that Intel's old Gen branding was done away with and that Meteor Lake doesn't support DDR4, so that's par for the course. Turning off the low-power E-cores also makes sense because they aren't that useful for high-power CPUs. Arrow Lake will also seemingly come with the four-core GPU tile that low-end Meteor Lake models use.

Two of the remaining three predictions raise eyebrows: The leaker says that Arrow Lake has no hyper-threading and that its NPU performs the same as Meteor Lake's. We've seen leaked Arrow Lake CPUs without hyper-threading before, but as these are engineering samples, hyper-threading may be turned off for stability or testing purposes. There have been rumors that Intel will retire hyper-threading, but typically from sources with poor track records. In contrast, Golden Pig Upgrade has an excellent track record. The claim that the NPU isn't just the same as Meteor Lake's but performs the same would seem contradictory. Intel says Arrow Lake triples AI performance, though perhaps that's only for specific CPUs or refers to GPU improvements.

The final and most interesting claim from Golden Pig Upgrade is that Intel's 20A node will only be used for midrange Arrow Lake compute tiles with six P-cores and eight E-cores. It's hard to tell if the leaker means this specifically for mobile CPUs or if this also applies to desktop models, but either way, it's a big assertion. Given how much Intel has touted 20A and its introduction of PowerVia backside power delivery and RibbonFETs, it's hard to imagine Intel won't utilize it for most of the Arrow Lake lineup. The leaker also didn't mention what TSMC node Intel would use, though perhaps we're supposed to infer it's 3nm.

On the other hand, it's rumored that Intel will rely on TSMC's 3nm process for Lunar Lake MX, though this is seemingly a variant of Lunar Lake. Additionally, slides from Intel indicate that there isn't that much capacity for 20A and 18A chips in 2024 or 2025, so if this rumor is true, then perhaps it's just because of supply issues. Still, it would be very surprising if the CPU that's supposed to return Intel to node leadership is largely powered by TSMC, even if that only applies to the lower-end mobile SKUs.

 
The linked article says Arrow Lake won't have DDR5 support, which is apparently not the case; Arrow Lake may be dropping support for DDR4, which may be an interesting cost reduction.

I'm not buying the HyperThreading replacement story. Not that Intel HyperThreading is so impressive, being only two threads, but I've read the patent for the so-called replacement, and it looks complex to implement, and none of the authors are top of the line Intel engineers. As for the fab predictions, the claims look more like click bait than a factual leak. The whole leak runs counter to Gelsinger's claims about AI and performance and Intel fab leadership, and most of those claims are only a few months old. If this leak is correct, I suspect heads will be rolling.
 
I mentioned this in a separate thread. We should be preparing for what happens if you have an advanced process but nothing (or minimal volume) is made on it. The Arrow lake roadmap will change multiple times before launch and even some Intel people may get confused (remember the "Meteor Lake IS for desktops" fiasco [spoiler alert ... its not])

Focus on what is shipping in volume and the paradox goes away....
 
Intel was in chaos for a 6~7 years. So it's not really easy what's really happening there. If the leaker is correct then it's just same as what they did to Meteor lake(2023 Dec. launch, mobile only Intel 4).

Maybe they're doing this because they have reserved so much N3B capacity to hedge their fab issues, or maybe 20A isn't working well now. How knows...
 
I'm not buying the HyperThreading replacement story. Not that Intel HyperThreading is so impressive, being only two threads, but I've read the patent for the so-called replacement, and it looks complex to implement, and none of the authors are top of the line Intel engineers. As for the fab predictions, the claims look more like click bait than a factual leak. The whole leak runs counter to Gelsinger's claims about AI and performance and Intel fab leadership, and most of those claims are only a few months old. If this leak is correct, I suspect heads will be rolling.
I'm curious as to how the replacement will be implemented. Do you have a link to the patent?
 
I just don't buy this leak.

If compute for arrow lake is on TSCM then there won't be backside power delivery and ribbonfets. Because those two have been said to be on Arrow Lake. Intel has said they will be on Arrow Lake. And intel is the only one capable of doing those two things. TSMC cannot.
 
"Focus on what is shipping in volume"

Agree.

"Lake" products are mostly non-Intel-manufacturing, with Intel packaging. A retreat from front-end manufacturing, with Foveros becoming the main differentiating ingredient. Intel and AMD products will be pretty similar in the "Lake" world. Exciting times to see the finished products and the price.

Will Intel lose competitiveness more now that they have the cost of internal manufacturing and the external foundry costs, thus a higher cost stack than AMD has?
 
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