TSMC Cuts Off Client After Discovering Chips Diverted to Huawei
- Thread starter Daniel Nenni
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Statement by Xiamen SOPHGO Technologies Ltd.
Statement by Xiamen SOPHGO Technologies Ltd.www.sophgo.com
Wow, strong statement! I hope they do hold these rumor mongering media outlets accountable.
TSMC tech in Huawei's AI chips raises questions about 'porous' supply chain
When a Canadian research firm found that Huawei Technologies' multi-chiplet artificial intelligence (AI) processor Ascend 910B contained dies made by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC), it shed light on possible loopholes in US sanctions and China's persistent efforts to access advanced foundry technologies, according to analysts.
"US long-arm sanctions on China's semiconductor sector have proven to be porous," said Arisa Liu, a research fellow and director at the Taiwan Institute of Economic Research.
The discovery has caused a scramble to find explanations for what happened. TSMC has since halted shipments to an unnamed customer after discovering one of its chips supplied to the client ended up in a Huawei product, Reuters reported on Wednesday. The chip maker also notified the US government and Taiwanese authorities about the incident, a possible breach of US export controls, according to Taiwan official media.
The logo of TSMC outside one of its facilities in Taichung, Taiwan, on December 2, 2019. Photo: Shutterstock alt=The logo of TSMC outside one of its facilities in Taichung, Taiwan, on December 2, 2019. Photo: Shutterstock>
In a previous statement, TSMC said it has not supplied Huawei since September 2020. Huawei said it has not "produced any chips via TSMC after the implementation of the amendments made by the US Department of Commerce to its [foreign direct product rule] that targeted Huawei in 2020".
For now, there are more questions than answers. The duration, size and scope of the suspected customer's cooperation with TSMC remain unknown. The customer's relationship with Huawei, or whether it has any relationship with the Chinese telecoms equipment maker at all, is also unknown. It is not certain whether the TSMC dies found by TechInsights made their way into Huawei hardware via the same customer.
Whether Huawei had access to TSMC's advanced foundry capacity directly or through indirect proxies, it is a sign that the strict US semiconductor restrictions targeting the Chinese national champion are compromised, analysts say.
The TechInsights finding has largely gone unreported in official Chinese media, although several social media accounts translated and cited foreign media reports.
As Huawei's Ascend chips have risen to become China's premier AI-focused semiconductors, they are now at the heart of the country's self-sufficiency drive. As of this year, the Ascend ecosystem has 40 hardware partners, 1,600 software partners and 2,900 AI application solutions, according to Huawei.
Huawei first released the Ascend 910 chip in 2019, four months after the company was added to a US trade blacklist, and it has since kept its capabilities close to its chest. The company never officially released the 910B. Instead, the product just appeared unannounced on the mainland in 2023, quickly becoming the most popular alternative to Nvidia products.
A Huawei executive said at a forum in June this year that the 910B chip is on par with Nvidia's A100 - one of the most popular graphics processing units in the AI industry. There is "not much difference" in computing power performance between the 910B and Nvidia A100 when it comes to training large AI models, Wang Tao, chief operating officer of Jiangsu Kunpeng Ecosystem Innovation Centre, said at the time.
But key information about 910B, including its output scale and manufacturers, remains undisclosed. An industry source told the Post earlier that Huawei has started to send its third-generation 910C chip to a limited group of major customers for testing and configuration.
Industry insiders said the incident implies that China still faces difficulty in advanced chip-making, and it remains extremely hard for China to make progress in the sector without foreign technologies or tools such as extreme ultraviolet lithography machines from Dutch supplier ASML.
Huawei surprised the market last year with a smartphone powered by a 7-nanometre chip, which a TechInsights teardown report later found was manufactured by Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation. The Mate 60 Pro marked Huawei's return to the 5G handset market, and patriotic fervour spurred sales of the device and the following flagship, the Pura 70.
Ah well this story never get mentioned by BIS folk even during the "red flag" panel discussion. I submitted my question but never directly addressed.
Mainly the event obsessed with Russia again and the Japanese with minor mention of North Korea.
Maybe the TSMC story is something about nothing.
Mainly the event obsessed with Russia again and the Japanese with minor mention of North Korea.
Maybe the TSMC story is something about nothing.
According to reports, TSMC planned to start producing ASICs for Chinese chip design company Bitmain in Arizona early next year
timculpan.substack.com
"As for the supposed Bitmain-Sophgo-Huawei link, well, that can be spun anyway you like. I am not dismissing this connection, but there’s also no reason to be surprised. Most Chinese chip and tech companies are brethren through one common link — the Chinese government."
"A few years ago, in another life, I wrote that TSMC is going to have to choose sides. It chose the US, which was a wise choice — not just politically, but financially. But that means the company must understand that it faces landmines in even considering taking on Chinese clients. It shouldn’t wait for a letter from the US Commerce Department to know what’s the smart move."
IMHO, it's the "only" choice.
TSMC Planned to Make Bitmain Chips in the US
[Exclusive] The Chinese company's ASICs were lined up for TSMC's Arizona fab. Then the Taiwanese giant changed its mind
timculpan.substack.com
"As for the supposed Bitmain-Sophgo-Huawei link, well, that can be spun anyway you like. I am not dismissing this connection, but there’s also no reason to be surprised. Most Chinese chip and tech companies are brethren through one common link — the Chinese government."
"A few years ago, in another life, I wrote that TSMC is going to have to choose sides. It chose the US, which was a wise choice — not just politically, but financially. But that means the company must understand that it faces landmines in even considering taking on Chinese clients. It shouldn’t wait for a letter from the US Commerce Department to know what’s the smart move."
IMHO, it's the "only" choice.
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That makes a lot more sense than the Huawei Ascend 910B conversation.
Sophgo was making its own AI chips at TSMC and caught the attention of the US government.
The US have been sanctioning all the Chinese AI companies. Not just Huawei's HiSilicon but also Cambricon and Biren.
If you design HPC chips in China in general and sell them to third parties you are pretty much screwed and will get yourself into the Entity List.
Sophgo was making its own AI chips at TSMC and caught the attention of the US government.
The US have been sanctioning all the Chinese AI companies. Not just Huawei's HiSilicon but also Cambricon and Biren.
If you design HPC chips in China in general and sell them to third parties you are pretty much screwed and will get yourself into the Entity List.
The story continues with a few more details in the WSJ.
Mystery Surrounds Discovery of TSMC Tech Inside Huawei AI Chips
The apparent use of TSMC circuitry, believed to have first routed through a Chinese chip firm, shows the difficulties for the U.S. to enforce a tech crackdown
Core circuitry produced by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. was found in Huawei’s Ascend 910B chips, according to people familiar with the matter and TechInsights, a Canada-based research firm that conducts product teardowns which have hit Washington’s radar before.
Based on a preliminary internal investigation, TSMC believes its technology was routed somehow through Sophgo, a Chinese chip company, though others could be involved, according to people familiar with the matter.
Two TechInsights reports, published last month, established a link between TSMC’s circuitry and the Huawei AI chip. The orders to Sophgo were flagged internally at TSMC last month, according to people familiar with the matter. The Taiwanese chip maker has also recently canceled Sophgo’s orders considered suspicious and reported the case to U.S. regulators, the people said.
apple.news
Mystery Surrounds Discovery of TSMC Tech Inside Huawei AI Chips
The apparent use of TSMC circuitry, believed to have first routed through a Chinese chip firm, shows the difficulties for the U.S. to enforce a tech crackdown
Core circuitry produced by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. was found in Huawei’s Ascend 910B chips, according to people familiar with the matter and TechInsights, a Canada-based research firm that conducts product teardowns which have hit Washington’s radar before.
Based on a preliminary internal investigation, TSMC believes its technology was routed somehow through Sophgo, a Chinese chip company, though others could be involved, according to people familiar with the matter.
Two TechInsights reports, published last month, established a link between TSMC’s circuitry and the Huawei AI chip. The orders to Sophgo were flagged internally at TSMC last month, according to people familiar with the matter. The Taiwanese chip maker has also recently canceled Sophgo’s orders considered suspicious and reported the case to U.S. regulators, the people said.
Mystery Surrounds Discovery of TSMC Tech Inside Huawei AI Chips — The Wall Street Journal
The apparent use of TSMC circuitry, believed to have first routed through a Chinese chip firm, shows the difficulties for the U.S. to enforce a tech crackdown
apple.news
Except Sophgo is a competitor to Huawei that designs its own AI chips. So explain me that.
They launched their first AI chip (BM1680) in 2017, before the US sanctions started, still under the Bitmain brand.
Huawei launched their first AI processor, the Ascend 310, using the Da Vinci architecture in 2018.
Neither Bitmain nor Sophgo were under US sanctions.
There are several AI acceleration companies in China besides Huawei. Including Biren and Cambricon. Sophgo is just another Chinese company which makes AI accelerators. My guess is it somehow slipped past US regulators that this company even existed or made AI accelerators, Biren and Cambricon were already sanctioned, and now you see these bogus news.
They launched their first AI chip (BM1680) in 2017, before the US sanctions started, still under the Bitmain brand.
Huawei launched their first AI processor, the Ascend 310, using the Da Vinci architecture in 2018.
Neither Bitmain nor Sophgo were under US sanctions.
There are several AI acceleration companies in China besides Huawei. Including Biren and Cambricon. Sophgo is just another Chinese company which makes AI accelerators. My guess is it somehow slipped past US regulators that this company even existed or made AI accelerators, Biren and Cambricon were already sanctioned, and now you see these bogus news.
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Sure. But why this nonsensical argument that Sophgo ordered Huawei Ascend 910B chips? It looks just farcical to me.
Huawei can make tens of millions of smartphone SoCs at SMIC and we are to believe they cannot make some AI accelerator chips if they so wanted. The lengths US regulators go to cover their asses to make people believe the PRC can no longer manufacture FinFET chips due to their oh so amazing sanctions are unbelievable.
Congratulations for pushing yet another major customer of TSMC (Bitmain) into SMIC's arms. I think they were the major Chinese, nay, non-US client they had left. Bitmain used most of the capacity at TSMC's Nanjing fab.
No wonder SMIC doubled the size of their FinFET fab. I would not be surprised if they build a whole new one as well.
What the US government is doing is pushing all the leading edge Chinese chip designers right into SMIC's arms.
TSMC was trying to screw SMIC over by making their own FinFET fab in China and taking all their customers. Then the US government comes in and messes up all of that.
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So far they have only made about 10M Kirin 9000's for the Mate 60 Pro. The Mate 70 launch was postponed due to Kirin 9100 chip availability - they didn't have enough working chips banked by Oct. According to the new release below, "The Shenzhen-based firm has readied more than 1 million units of the Mate 70 for the coming release". Lackluster sales for the iPhone 16 meant only 37M units sold in its first weekend. Typical yearly run rates for leading new phone chips are 50-70M in the first year. What's wrong with this picture ??
ps: Plenty of stories this summer about poor yields and capacity tradeoffs between Ascend 910Bs and Kirin 9000s. SMIC is NOT performing like a national champion. Growing impossible to hide their lack of capability.
They are not under financial pressures though are they?
Just keep plugging away is the policy is it not?
The Mate 60 series are not the only smartphones Huawei makes which use SMIC FinFET processors. They also make the Pura, Nova series. Not to mention tablets like the MatePad series. At this point all the mobile devices Huawei sell probably use SMIC chips.
Yole estimates 43 million smartphones shipped by Huawei in 2023.
Canalys claims 11.7 million smartphones shipped by Huawei in Q1 2024 in China alone.
Huawei tops Q1 2024 China smartphone market due to Mate and Nova series: Canalys
Huawei has been the best performer in the Q1 2024 China smartphone market and a major part of this achievement chalks up to Nova 12 and Mate 60 handsets, says Canalys. Both lineups gained immense support and remain in hot demand in China. On April 26, Canalys research firm shared its analytical...
www.huaweicentral.com
All of this from a factory which until last year had only 35,000 wafers per month of capacity. Is this low yield?
The Kirin 9000S is 14.5 x 14.3 mm.
80% yield with 35,000 wafers per month in a quarter is 22.6 million Kirin 9000S processors per quarter. So just to satisfy the HiSilicon mobile device demand of 11.7 million devices at that kind of yield would take like half their fab production.
Huawei's HiSilicon is not the only customer for SMIC's FinFET process. Companies like Loongson or Phytium are also customers. Phytium and Loongson are under US sanctions. So the chips they sell have to be made at SMIC. They do not come out of nowhere.
Loongson Says Its Next-Gen 3B6600 CPUs Will Compete Against Mid & High-End Intel 12th & 13th Gen Chips, Will Feature iGPU
Loongson is going to tackle Intel's 12th & 13th Gen CPUs with its next-gen 3B6600 chips which will feature an in-house architecture.
wccftech.com
I have different information. That the launch was delayed until Huawei's HarmonyOS NEXT was available. HarmonyOS NEXT came out a couple weeks ago. And wouldn't you know the Mate 70 is claimed to be launched this month.
HarmonyOS NEXT is incompatible with Android and requires applications to be rewritten to work with it. It would make no sense to release a device with an OS without apps for it. So they are rolling the OS update to the older devices first.
Huawei announces 15,000 native HarmonyOS apps and services
Huawei has launched the HarmonyOS NEXT operating system for smart devices and revealed more than 15,000 native apps and services are now part of its ecosystem. The company has shared some insights on this development saying that its partners started these app development on September 25, 2023...
www.huaweicentral.com
HarmonyOS market share soars 15% in China while Android dips: Q3 2024
TechInsights released a new report showing that HarmonyOS captured a market share of 15% in Q3 2024 in China. Huawei’s latest OS version unexpectedly increased the company’s revenue in the Chinese smartphone OS market for the third quarter. Huawei is giving tough competition to its foreign...
www.huaweicentral.com
SMIC has manufacturing constraints yes. But yield certainly does not seem to be such a constraint to me. Their constraint is capacity in my opinion. Even at 80% yield back when SMIC had 35,000 wpm capacity even if they ran the fab flat out just to supply Huawei to make smartphone devices they would have been hard pressed to supply those numbers.
Huawei also makes baseband units for 5G cellphone towers. They sell millions of these units a year. Where are they fabbing those chips? SMIC.
Those stories are just plain bullshit and people wishing reality away. While it is true that the sanctions put constraints on Huawei's growth, what is also true is that Huawei managed to make a supply chain 100% inside China to replace the stuff they used to import in two years. And all that money will now be going into the Chinese IC sector.
Proof of that is SMIC has doubled the floor space at its FinFET fab.
SMIC has surpassed UMC and Globalfoundries in revenue. They are only behind TSMC and Samsung.
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