Trump administration orders federal funding freeze on all public loans, grants and more aid

[OneEng]

While I sympathize with what they are going through, change is part of life. They'll be OK. If theyre in a position to even get a PhD at a young age ... They'll find a way.

Keep their glass half full.

Thanks.

We are fortunate for sure. I can only hope that my grandchildren are in a position to do as well or better than my kids. The trend in the US on this metric isn't good though. From what I understand, this generation is the first in US history where it isn't generally and statistically true. Change is indeed needed, but the current course isn't the right one IMO.

 

[jms_embedded]

My son is in his last semester of an aviation degree to become a commercial pilot, so I know how much the federal grant money has helped him. That said we need to find some way to kill of these federal grant and loan programs. The obscene rise in the cost of higher education correlates very well with the introduction of these federal program.

Correlation does not imply causation

 

[Artificer60]

Correlation does not imply causation

Absolutely true, and that is why I specified correlation. However, lacking other alternative explanations I'm left to believe that this is the cause. If there is another, more plausible explanation I'd love to hear it.

 

[OneEng]

Absolutely true, and that is why I specified correlation. However, lacking other alternative explanations I'm left to believe that this is the cause. If there is another, more plausible explanation I'd love to hear it.

Possibly supply and demand. The number of new students has grown as the population has grown. Furthermore, the percentage of HS grads that attend college has grown as well.

The number of public colleges has not kept up.

Sure, if you want to attend a community college, or a non-technical college, there are plenty out there. If, on the other hand, you want a technical degree, the pickings are not so good.

There are, of course, tons of wasteful spending associated with colleges.... but people love the sports programs .

Additionally, removing the aid program will have some pretty serious long term effects on the country. Do we really want the success or failure of a child to come down to how much money their parents make?

 

[blueone]

Absolutely true, and that is why I specified correlation. However, lacking other alternative explanations I'm left to believe that this is the cause. If there is another, more plausible explanation I'd love to hear it.

While I despise the Fortune.com website (its pop-up ads are truly obnoxious), I bookmarked this article years ago, because I thought it summed up some important factors in college cost inflation nicely.

A New Study Investigates Why College Tuition Is So Expensive

Over the past two decades, published college tuition has increased in price more than any other good or service besides hospital care.

www.forbes.com

Administration bloat has bloated even further since that article was written. When I was in college I never heard of a "vice chancellor". Now I find I'm LinkedIn with some. They all have a staff. Salaries are cloud computing company high.

Too much campus-building and marketing costs.

Why are textbooks so overpriced?

Funny, but adjunct teaching has exploded, and these professors don't get paid much.

Why are professors also allowed to be corporate executives?

This is the follow-up article:

Administrative Bloat At U.S. Colleges Is Skyrocketing

A recent report found that on average, the top 50 schools have 1 faculty per 11 students whereas the same institutions have 1 non-faculty employee per 4 students.

www.forbes.com

It's pretty good too.

(The Forbes website really annoys me.)

 

[Xebec]

Possibly supply and demand. The number of new students has grown as the population has grown. Furthermore, the percentage of HS grads that attend college has grown as well.

The number of public colleges has not kept up.

Sure, if you want to attend a community college, or a non-technical college, there are plenty out there. If, on the other hand, you want a technical degree, the pickings are not so good.

There are, of course, tons of wasteful spending associated with colleges.... but people love the sports programs .

Additionally, removing the aid program will have some pretty serious long term effects on the country. Do we really want the success or failure of a child to come down to how much money their parents make?

Agree with this generally -- though as a society we've somewhat stigmatized the trade schools vs. "proper college education".

There are plenty of great opportunities to make good money in plumbing, electrical, woodworking, etc. These trades doe not require overpriced $100K/year degrees. (Trades are certainly more useful than art degrees and sports programs . ). There are plenty of tradespeople making more money (and potentially being healthier by not sitting at a desk) than those with 4-6+ years of degrees.

On the other end, college influence on corporate america is also a problem. Businesses requiring degrees where frankly they've often not useful other than just to show stats on their hiring. That also increases demand without touching supply. This is possibly the main root of the problem as some corporations assume good engineers and scientists only come from certain schools..

The federal subsidies can be helpful to people in need but they definitely have the effect of increasing demand without addressing supply. That pushes up the prices for everyone attending.

 

[OneEng]

Agree with this generally -- though as a society we've somewhat stigmatized the trade schools vs. "proper college education".

There are plenty of great opportunities to make good money in plumbing, electrical, woodworking, etc. These trades doe not require overpriced $100K/year degrees. (Trades are certainly more useful than art degrees and sports programs . ). There are plenty of tradespeople making more money (and potentially being healthier by not sitting at a desk) than those with 4-6+ years of degrees.

On the other end, college influence on corporate america is also a problem. Businesses requiring degrees where frankly they've often not useful other than just to show stats on their hiring. That also increases demand without touching supply. This is possibly the main root of the problem as some corporations assume good engineers and scientists only come from certain schools..

The federal subsidies can be helpful to people in need but they definitely have the effect of increasing demand without addressing supply. That pushes up the prices for everyone attending.

Fair; however, the trades are physically difficult work (I am also a qualified electrician and do plumbing work).

Ever spent any time trying to do plumbing in a house in the south with a crawl space? Pretty physically challenging work doing the ole duck walk while squatting down all day .

Yes, it is good money, and good Lord knows we need more of them (if only to bring down the cost and the waiting line in many areas), but it is tough work.

I recently had my septic tank cleaned. A guy 68 years old who owns his own business came over and dug a huge hole (about 3 ft deep and several feet wide) to find the septic cover (Michigan doesn't require the tube access like some states). Man, I got sweaty just watching the poor guy work.

Same for car mechanics. It's some tough work breaking those ball joints lose!

As an engineer, I can keep working (or doing retirement work) as long as I remain sharp and can still operate CAD, schematic capture, layout, etc programs and write code in a few languages. I am pretty glad I don't have to do heavy labor (I am approaching my 60's) today (except when my wife makes me on our own house ).

Yes, there is good money in the trades, but man, it is some tough work sometimes. It can wear a body down.

I am a veteran of the USN and submarine service. My ex father in law once asked me if I had considered staying in as I could retire a young man (would have retired at 38).

I asked him:

1) How many men did you shower with today?
2) Have you ever seen anyone who retired from the USN sub service who still LOOKED young to you?

I guess what I am saying is that there is more to it than money to consider.

 

[Xebec]

Fair; however, the trades are physically difficult work (I am also a qualified electrician and do plumbing work).

Ever spent any time trying to do plumbing in a house in the south with a crawl space? Pretty physically challenging work doing the ole duck walk while squatting down all day .

Yes, it is good money, and good Lord knows we need more of them (if only to bring down the cost and the waiting line in many areas), but it is tough work.

I recently had my septic tank cleaned. A guy 68 years old who owns his own business came over and dug a huge hole (about 3 ft deep and several feet wide) to find the septic cover (Michigan doesn't require the tube access like some states). Man, I got sweaty just watching the poor guy work.

Same for car mechanics. It's some tough work breaking those ball joints lose!

As an engineer, I can keep working (or doing retirement work) as long as I remain sharp and can still operate CAD, schematic capture, layout, etc programs and write code in a few languages. I am pretty glad I don't have to do heavy labor (I am approaching my 60's) today (except when my wife makes me on our own house ).

Yes, there is good money in the trades, but man, it is some tough work sometimes. It can wear a body down.

I am a veteran of the USN and submarine service. My ex father in law once asked me if I had considered staying in as I could retire a young man (would have retired at 38).

I asked him:

1) How many men did you shower with today?
2) Have you ever seen anyone who retired from the USN sub service who still LOOKED young to you?

I guess what I am saying is that there is more to it than money to consider.

Lol. Good points for sure and thank you for your service!

 

[Daniel Nenni]

I am a veteran of the USN and submarine service. My ex father in law once asked me if I had considered staying in as I could retire a young man (would have retired at 38).
I asked him:
1) How many men did you shower with today?
2) Have you ever seen anyone who retired from the USN sub service who still LOOKED young to you?
I guess what I am saying is that there is more to it than money to consider.

I am from a very military family on both sides. My father, who was an Airforce Pilot during the Korean War, had six boys, no girls, and convinced us all not to pursue a career in the military. He said go out and make money because wars suck. Then came Vietnam and we were convinced. I chose to seek my fortune in Silicon Valley. No regrets. None of my four children chose the military, they all got college degrees and none of them followed me to Silicon Valley. I got my undergrad using loans. Graduate degree was mostly paid by my employer. I paid for my kids college and hope to pay for the grandchildren as well but I have no idea what college will look like in 10-15 years.

The next four years will be interesting. Some of my peers are retiring, the others (myself included) will continue to work since we can and enjoy it, plus the extra money might make a difference for family.

We are lucky to be in a competitive industry that has such an impact on the human race, absolutely.

 

[OneEng]

I am from a very military family on both sides. My father, who was an Airforce Pilot during the Korean War, had six boys, no girls, and convinced us all not to pursue a career in the military. He said go out and make money because wars suck. Then came Vietnam and we were convinced. I chose to seek my fortune in Silicon Valley. No regrets. None of my four children chose the military, they all got college degrees and none of them followed me to Silicon Valley. I got my undergrad using loans. Graduate degree was mostly paid by my employer. I paid for my kids college and hope to pay for the grandchildren as well but I have no idea what college will look like in 10-15 years.

The next four years will be interesting. Some of my peers are retiring, the others (myself included) will continue to work since we can and enjoy it, plus the extra money might make a difference for family.

We are lucky to be in a competitive industry that has such an impact on the human race, absolutely.

I went to school on loans and my VEAP (Service adds $2 to every $1 you put in) which was the only program available to me (and it maxed out at $7600.00 so, not so much help there).

Fortunately, the state of Illinois gives free tuition to vets (even at the University of Illinois .... if you can get in). Still, tuition was only half of my expenses (maybe less back then). I worked (turns out an ex-navy nuke can get decent coin from doing research as an undergrad), and took out loans. It was a tough slog, but I wouldn't have even been close to being able to pull it off without the tuition and loans.

None of my 3 kids went into the service (Law School, Ph D student, and Sophomore in ME), although they all asked me about it. I told them all that for a poor country kid like me, it was the only way to get where I am today. They are much more fortunate than I was. No one in my family had ever had a degree before, and in fact, some of my family members still don't consider what I do every day "real work". My kids have had 2 parents advocating education for them since middle school. My wife and I have purchased our homes ONLY where good schools would be available to our kids as our primary purchasing criteria as we wanted them to be around like-minded kids all headed for advanced schooling. Shoot, I couldn't even spell "Calculus" when I graduated High School .

As for paying for college, my kids are each 5 years apart. My wife and I have been paying for college for well over a decade now with about 2 years to go. We joke about what we will do with all that disposable income between then and retirement (Just joking, my wife has plenty of home renovation plans for that money ).

We are indeed very fortunate to be in a position of high demand .... and one that really makes a difference. My kids will be OK no matter what happens in the US government; however, there are lots of kids out there like me, that without the aid and programs ..... would never have gotten here in the first place .... and neither would their kids.

 

[Barnsley]

Agree with this generally -- though as a society we've somewhat stigmatized the trade schools vs. "proper college education".

There are plenty of great opportunities to make good money in plumbing, electrical, woodworking, etc. These trades doe not require overpriced $100K/year degrees. (Trades are certainly more useful than art degrees and sports programs . ). There are plenty of tradespeople making more money (and potentially being healthier by not sitting at a desk) than those with 4-6+ years of degrees.

On the other end, college influence on corporate america is also a problem. Businesses requiring degrees where frankly they've often not useful other than just to show stats on their hiring. That also increases demand without touching supply. This is possibly the main root of the problem as some corporations assume good engineers and scientists only come from certain schools..

The federal subsidies can be helpful to people in need but they definitely have the effect of increasing demand without addressing supply. That pushes up the prices for everyone attending.

Yes the " need a degree for every job" has utterly destroyed the pre-University qualification.
They may as well not exist anymore as they have no value to the employer.
The UK education system has been destroyed by forcing everyone into University , gone are the days where you could join at 16/18 and then work your way up acquiring qualifications and skills on the way.
The same has happened to Singapore , and with massive influx of foreigners "with degrees" those without a degree here have no chance.
Sad , but here we are.

 

[OneEng]

Yes the " need a degree for every job" has utterly destroyed the pre-University qualification.
They may as well not exist anymore as they have no value to the employer.
The UK education system has been destroyed by forcing everyone into University , gone are the days where you could join at 16/18 and then work your way up acquiring qualifications and skills on the way.
The same has happened to Singapore , and with massive influx of foreigners "with degrees" those without a degree here have no chance.
Sad , but here we are.

Despite my having a degree, I have frequently been quoted as saying "A degree and a dollar twenty five will get you a coke in the break room". I operated a nuclear power plant on a sub without a degree (in fact the entire power plant is operated by non-degreed enlisted in the US). My desire for a degree stemmed from an encounter I had in the Navy while the ship was in dry dock.

There were civilian engineers that worked for the shipyard that I (as the senior enlisted supervisor on watch (EWS) interfaced with daily to coordinate shipyard work with the sub crew and our operations. In specific there were a particular 2 shipyard supervisors that I remember particularly well because they had such a profound impact on my life.

The first was an ex-Navy nuke (like me) and the other was a Harvard degreed engineer. The first was a breeze to work with. He was organized, understood EVERYTHING about the ship and its operations, and managed his team of engineers exceptionally well. The Harvard dude .... not so much. Days where he was my counterpart were an exersize in simply avoiding disaster after disaster as it was constant work to keep his head out of his ..... well, you know. It was exhausting and little was accomplished on those days.

I came to find out that both of these men were up for promotion to Shipyard commander. I remember talking to one of the shipyard engineers about it and saying "Well.... that should be a pretty quick choice then". He looked at my naïve face sadly and told me that it was certainly going to be a quick choice, but not as I had reasoned.

As I stated earlier, I was ignorant and was raised in a largely ignorant environment. Up to that moment, I seriously had no idea what a "degree" meant (other than Officers all had one). It pissed me off so badly that I decided that very moment that I was going to get one of those pieces of paper for myself. Not because I though I needed it to be an engineer, but because the world evidently operated on the premise that only someone with a degree could be an engineer.

I agree that this premise has held back talented individuals and has hurt the industry globally. I can't change the world, so I learned to play the game as I now understood it.

Still, having had a crap ton of exposure to various university programs over my career, the idea that NOTHING of value is learned in a degree is not true either. Theories, concepts, and a certain way of thinking to better understand why things work the way they work are valuable assets in new design and are taught extensively at most universities.