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My thoughts on the recent Morris Chang interview

Daniel Nenni

Admin
Staff member
Morris Chang Autobiography.jpg

I finally finished the three hour Morris Chang interview. The last 30 minutes is the hosts chatting amongst themselves which I would skip since they have no idea what they are talking about. I am embarrassed for them because they think they know the semiconductor industry. What is more annoying than listening to someone who thinks they know what they are talking about but do not? Not much.

The first thing I noticed is that the Philips - TSMC partnership was not even mentioned. Without Phillips TSMC would not have happened, absolutely. Here is a more detailed description:

https://semiwiki.com/semiconductor-manufacturers/333584-how-philips-saved-tsmc/

Three Highlights

Morris talked about the problems with 40nm yield and Nvidia. I knew that TSMC paid Nvidia off but I did not know it was more than $100M, and back then (2008 ish) $100M was serious money. It was a diving catch to save the Nvidia relationship and Morris definitely owned that one. He has excellent long term vision which some CEOs seriously lack.

From what I remember it was not really TSMC’s fault. I participated in a GPU tape out at 40nm and inside the PDK were two sets of design rules: minimum rules and recommended or DFM rules. The customer could choose but the Design for Manufacture rules were pushed. The GPU I was involved with went low risk with the DFM rules thus giving up some PPA. Nvidia went with the minimum rules because they were smarter than everyone else and did not yield. TSMC 28nm only had one set of design rules so lesson learned.

TSMC took a horrible bashing over this but I remember laughing with the other GPU team who did in fact yield. Great story though and Morris tells it well.

Morris also talked about the success of 28nm. That was the first big node win for TSMC. As Morris said, TSMC did invest heavily in 28nm capacity which was a big risk back then. What he did not say is that the competition whiffed at 28nm which helped make TSMC the foundry king they are today. This was when IBM, Samsung, and Chartered Semiconductor (Now GF) formed the Common Platform Alliance and used the IBM process recipe. The result was the HKMG gate-first versus gate-last controversy. Common Platform used IBM’s gate-first technology and did not yield. TSMC followed Intel with gate-last and won the 28nm node by a large margin and that was the end of the Common Platform Alliance.

The section about the Apple relationship was very interesting. I knew quite a bit about it but I did not know about the fateful dinner set up by Terry Gou, founder of Foxconn. Morris did not mention the Most Favored Nation contract that resulted in detail but he did talk about the 40% margin requirement set by Apple. Apple “allowed” TSMC to have a 40% wafer margin :ROFLMAO:.

Apple really disrupted the foundry business and made TSMC what they are today, the most competitive semiconductor foundry the world will ever see, my opinion.

I eagerly await the English translation of the latest Morris Change biography. At 93 he is still very sharp and a great story teller!

 
Last edited:
View attachment 2776
I finally finished the three hour Morris Chang interview. The last 30 minutes is the hosts chatting amongst themselves which I would skip since they have no idea what they are talking about. I am embarrassed for them because they think they know the semiconductor industry. What is more annoying than listening to someone who thinks they know what they are talking about but do not? Not much.

The first thing I noticed is that the Philips - TSMC partnership was not even mentioned. Without Phillips TSMC would not have happened, absolutely. Here is a more detailed description:

https://semiwiki.com/semiconductor-manufacturers/333584-how-philips-saved-tsmc/

Three Highlights

Morris talked about the problems with 40nm yield and Nvidia. I knew that TSMC paid Nvidia off but I did not know it was more than $100M, and back then (2008 ish) $100M was serious money. It was a diving catch to save the Nvidia relationship and Morris definitely owned that one. He has excellent long term vision which some CEOs seriously lack.

From what I remember it was not really TSMC’s fault. I participated in a GPU tape out at 40nm and inside the PDK were two sets of design rules: minimum rules and recommended or DFM rules. The customer could choose but the Design for Manufacture rules were pushed. The GPU I was involved with went low risk with the DFM rules thus giving up some PPA. Nvidia went with the minimum rules because they were smarter than everyone else and did not yield. TSMC 28nm only had one set of design rules so lesson learned.

TSMC took a horrible bashing over this but I remember laughing with the other GPU team who did in fact yield. Great story though and Morris tells it well.

Morris also talked about the success of 28nm. That was the first big node win for TSMC. As Morris said, TSMC did invest heavily in 28nm capacity which was a big risk back then. What he did not say is that the competition whiffed at 28nm which helped make TSMC the foundry king they are today. This was when IBM, Samsung, and Chartered Semiconductor (Now GF) formed the Common Platform Alliance and used the IBM process recipe. The result was the HKMG gate-first versus gate-last controversy. Common Platform used IBM’s gate-first technology and did not yield. TSMC followed Intel with gate-last and won the 28nm node by a large margin and that was the end of the Common Platform Alliance.

The section about the Apple relationship was very interesting. I knew quite a bit about it but I did not know about the fateful dinner set up by Tony Gao, founder of Foxconn. Morris did not mention the Most Favored Nation contract that resulted in detail but he did talk about the 40% margin requirement set by Apple. Apple “allowed” TSMC to have a 40% wafer margin :ROFLMAO:.

Apple really disrupted the foundry business and made TSMC what they are today, the most competitive semiconductor foundry the world will ever see, my opinion.

I eagerly await the English translation of the latest Morris Change biography. At 93 he is still very sharp and a great story teller!


I think this Acquired interview is already unusually long. The edited edition is almost three hours and covered many topics in depth. I guess the actual interview is probably spanned much longer. This is especially not a common interview for a 93 years old Morris. He said he hasn't done this type of lengthy interview for a long time. 🙂

0:00 - Intro
3:22 - TSMC and Nvidia's relationship
9:50 - The 40nm node development problem in 2009
20:55 - The TSMC Laid Off Employee Protest
26:16 - TSMC's Incredible Core Business vs. Expansions
29:08 - Resolving the 2009 NVIDIA dispute
35:59 - TSMC's commitment to 28nm
43:04 - Going all-in on the 28nm node
52:05 - Meeting Apple and Jeff Williams
1:23:09 - Goldman Sachs
1:34:57 - ServiceNow
1:36:01 - Intel's and Apple
1:46:45 - Apple’s and the 20nm node
1:47:58 - Pricing
1:50:24 - Apple and trade-offs
1:55:22 - The IBM-Qualcomm story
2:02:18 - The Learning Curve
2:10:45 - The Flywheel of Returns
2:14:18 - TSMC’s Unexpected(?) Success
2:15:57 - The early days of TSMC
2:21:10 - Ben and David's Reflections
2:27:43 - Taiwanese Science Park
2:47:08 - Carve Outs

In the part #2 of Morris Chang's autobiography, there are several places talked about the TSMC and Phillips relationship in details.
 
View attachment 2776
I finally finished the three hour Morris Chang interview. The last 30 minutes is the hosts chatting amongst themselves which I would skip since they have no idea what they are talking about. I am embarrassed for them because they think they know the semiconductor industry. What is more annoying than listening to someone who thinks they know what they are talking about but do not? Not much.

The first thing I noticed is that the Philips - TSMC partnership was not even mentioned. Without Phillips TSMC would not have happened, absolutely. Here is a more detailed description:

https://semiwiki.com/semiconductor-manufacturers/333584-how-philips-saved-tsmc/

Three Highlights

Morris talked about the problems with 40nm yield and Nvidia. I knew that TSMC paid Nvidia off but I did not know it was more than $100M, and back then (2008 ish) $100M was serious money. It was a diving catch to save the Nvidia relationship and Morris definitely owned that one. He has excellent long term vision which some CEOs seriously lack.

From what I remember it was not really TSMC’s fault. I participated in a GPU tape out at 40nm and inside the PDK were two sets of design rules: minimum rules and recommended or DFM rules. The customer could choose but the Design for Manufacture rules were pushed. The GPU I was involved with went low risk with the DFM rules thus giving up some PPA. Nvidia went with the minimum rules because they were smarter than everyone else and did not yield. TSMC 28nm only had one set of design rules so lesson learned.

TSMC took a horrible bashing over this but I remember laughing with the other GPU team who did in fact yield. Great story though and Morris tells it well.

Morris also talked about the success of 28nm. That was the first big node win for TSMC. As Morris said, TSMC did invest heavily in 28nm capacity which was a big risk back then. What he did not say is that the competition whiffed at 28nm which helped make TSMC the foundry king they are today. This was when IBM, Samsung, and Chartered Semiconductor (Now GF) formed the Common Platform Alliance and used the IBM process recipe. The result was the HKMG gate-first versus gate-last controversy. Common Platform used IBM’s gate-first technology and did not yield. TSMC followed Intel with gate-last and won the 28nm node by a large margin and that was the end of the Common Platform Alliance.

The section about the Apple relationship was very interesting. I knew quite a bit about it but I did not know about the fateful dinner set up by Tony Gao, founder of Foxconn. Morris did not mention the Most Favored Nation contract that resulted in detail but he did talk about the 40% margin requirement set by Apple. Apple “allowed” TSMC to have a 40% wafer margin :ROFLMAO:.

Apple really disrupted the foundry business and made TSMC what they are today, the most competitive semiconductor foundry the world will ever see, my opinion.

I eagerly await the English translation of the latest Morris Change biography. At 93 he is still very sharp and a great story teller!

Daniel: Foxconn founder should be Terry Gao not Tony Gao. When Morris Chang talked about the history from his perspective, there will be some ripples or insights for people encountered then.
 
9:50 - The 40nm node development problem in 2009

What needs to be said it was in the mass extinction years for highly leveraged Western tech in general, due to loan recalls, and gaming/entertainment was the only thing which floated (entertainment is ridiculously countercyclical,) while all big boys went bankrupt.

43:04 - Going all-in on the 28nm node

28nm was happening when the fallout from the GFC finally arrived, and it was a very gloomy atmosphere for any big, long-term commitment. A number of experienced people understood from that start that gate first CPA had was both riskier, and lower performance in practice, but went along under the influence of the depressive atmosphere.
 
OT but I also feel like around 28nm was when TSMC "branding" or "mind share" took off for those not directly in the industry. I remember the press talking a lot more about TSMC around that timeframe than ever before, and the 28nm products all scaled really well vs. prior 40/45nm.

I look forward to hearing this interview.
 
We should note that gate-first is the basis for FDSOI products, so it’s still around.
What do you mean by that? You can do gate last FDSOI. My understanding was that all of the guys who licenced Leti's FDSOI tech are running gate last HKMG. To my knowledge the gate first versions of UMC, Samsung, and TSMC 32/28nm were only ever on bulk.
 
I remember the protests over the layoffs. Even though it seemed like Morris threw Risk Tsai under the bus I feel that Morris was being quite generous. I can't wait to read the book!
In part #2 of Morris Chang's autobiography, he mentioned that he still considered Rick Tsai a potential candidate to return as CEO of TSMC, even after Tsai was reassigned to the role of General Manager of the new business department (Solar Energy and LED). Despite maintaining his CEO-level job grade and salary, the Solar Energy and LED ventures did not succeed, leading TSMC to shut them down, and Rick Tsai subsequently resigned.
 
In part #2 of Morris Chang's autobiography, he mentioned that he still considered Rick Tsai a potential candidate to return as CEO of TSMC, even after Tsai was reassigned to the role of General Manager of the new business department (Solar Energy and LED). Despite maintaining his CEO-level job grade and salary, the Solar Energy and LED ventures did not succeed, leading TSMC to shut them down, and Rick Tsai subsequently resigned.
The industry gossip for tsmc's LED biz was joking that tsmc is using aircraft carriers for chatching shimps :cool:
 
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