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Craig Barrett: Intel is back—stop talking about breaking it up

14 process and product was very good technically. I made fun of the ++++ but they were still way ahead of TSMC and did amazing stuff. The process was way too expensive but it didnt matter since it was so far ahead..... then came 10nm and for the first time in 30 years, intel didnt deliver..... Intel did the finances and said "we cannot afford to do internal development and manufacturing due to our scale and not being OGA"
Intel is commonly believed to have had more scale on 10nm than TSMC had on N5 back in 2021. Even the most conservative tecinsights estimates had the Intel 10nm factory network at well over a million wafers per year at peak ramp. There is no indication that scale was ever a problem at that time. If 1M WSPY was insufficient to amortize the cost of technology TSMC would not have even gotten to 28nm. Also i10nm is probably the most cost ineffective process in semiconductor history. Only a fool would blindly extrapolate 10nm being cost ineffective to mean that all other Intel processes till the end of time would be as bad or worse.
They correctly decided to outsource in the future.
Outsourcing started from insufficient capacity and then continued due to a lack of faith in Intel's own ability to advance Moore's Law. Talk of outsourcing CPUs only happened after 7nm was delayed. Unless you think BS was lying and he already committed to N3 and beyond for CPUs with red ink before he even said that he was beginning to investigate that option. There is also the little detail that LTD wasn't shutdown as well as D1X3 and Fab34/44 construction continuing during BS's tenure which he would have stopped if his intent was to take Intel fabless. Intel themselves said they had no clue exactly how Intel's cost compared to equivalent foundry processes and that the new accounting structure was being implemented specifically so they could understand areas they were deficient. Untangling the numbers took if memory serves over a year from Intel saying they would do it.

To say there was some strong vision for a fabless Intel and that outsourcing was done because Intel didn't believe that they could afford fab investments doesn't agree with the facts known at the time or the actions of key stakeholders. BS was doing something far dumber than going fabless or doubling down on manufacturing. He was doing neither and aimlessly drifting towards a 100% garuenteed to fail and kill the whole company fab-lite strategy. Imagine Intel with the currently floundering Intel products. But now 18A is like 2 years out still, Pantherlake is an N3 product, Intel 4 would have probably been lower yield/more expensive (ala icelake or broadwell) and also weaker, GNR/SRF would have been weaker and like 6-12mo later, there would be no external revenue ever, and all future parts are large low margin tiles designs that are TSMC only, and old reliable (Intel 7) is still being used as a crutch for mainstream parts in 2027. That is the future BS seemed to be charting for Intel.
Then Pat came along and reversed the plan saying "we will do foundry and be selling billions in wafers in 2025"
Find me one point where this or anything even remotely close to this has been said. I'll wait.
I worked with Intel and Micron on technology development. Everything was different and micron was just twice as fast .... Intel response was typically "that wont work". Nvidia vs Intel product development is same. People who worked at both companies just say "its completely different" ... and of course nvidia is 2x faster.
One, based on how you have described your career in the past that is a disingenuous way to describe what you did. Two your experience is a decade plus out of date. Three your experience is with memory which is a different world from logic and wasn't Intel's main field of expertise at the time. Four Intel entered into a JV with Micron specifically because they would have thought they needed the help. Five memory TD was never done by PTD or LTD, but by a completely separate CA/NM (depending on which period you want to look at) team.
Intel spends more than any other company and the employees still complain that they do not spend enough...
No they don't. Post financial crisis to D1X mod 3 finishing in 2022, Intel built a "grand" total of 2 development fabs and 1 HVM fab. And that is with process complexity growing approximately 2X over the same period (assuming a 15% jump for each node and two 15% jumps at 14 and 10). During the same period TSMC built 5 development fabs and many dozens of HVM fabs. Everybody knows anything knows Intel logic process technology development was operating on a fraction of TSMC'S TD budget. Frankly I often wonder how Intel didn't get passed sooner by literally everyone else especially with the subpar equipment they were using and the cultural issues that supposedly got even worse after Bill Holt left.
 
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I think Pat mentioned betting everything on 18A? Or going all-in? I believe that to be true now. Intel 18A must succeed in the foundry business. I don't think Intel will get another chance. This is a must win situation for the manufacturing side.

Let's wait until the Intel Foundry event next month. I'm hoping for some really good news!

let's wait until intel spin is resolved, before speculating, seem counter to SemiWiki's canon
 
6 months out of the time between now and 2027, say mid year, 6/(2.5*12)=.2
so using your math, gelsinger's original break-even of around '27, plus the recent additional 6 month delay, still equals' 27.

you must know more than pat
 
so using your math, gelsinger's original break-even of around '27, plus the recent additional 6 month delay, still equals' 27.

you must know more than pat
I don't know more than Pat. In fact, I don't know this 6 month delay. I don't know the source of the news reporting the delay.

I am basing the calcs on the communication by DZ during the most recent conference calls. As I cannot know the time for breaking even, I use mid-year as an estimate. If to be pedantic, the variance is 6 months, early 2027 or late 2027.
 
Intel is commonly believed to have had more scale on 10nm than TSMC had on N5 back in 2021. Even the most conservative tecinsights estimates had the Intel 10nm factory network at well over a million wafers per year at peak ramp. There is no indication that scale was ever a problem at that time. If 1M WSPY was insufficient to amortize the cost of technology TSMC would not have even gotten to 28nm. Also i10nm is probably the most cost ineffective process in semiconductor history. Only a fool would blindly extrapolate 10nm being cost ineffective to mean that all other Intel processes till the end of time would be as bad or worse.

Outsourcing started from insufficient capacity and then continued due to a lack of faith in Intel's own ability to advance Moore's Law. Talk of outsourcing CPUs only happened after 7nm was delayed. Unless you think BS was lying and he already committed to N3 and beyond for CPUs with red ink before he even said that he was beginning to investigate that option. There is also the little detail that LTD wasn't shutdown as well as D1X3 and Fab34/44 construction continuing during BS's tenure which he would have stopped if his intent was to take Intel fabless. Intel themselves said they had no clue exactly how Intel's cost compared to equivalent foundry processes and that the new accounting structure was being implemented specifically so they could understand areas they were deficient. Untangling the numbers took if memory serves over a year from Intel saying they would do it.

To say there was some strong vision for a fabless Intel and that outsourcing was done because Intel didn't believe that they could afford fab investments doesn't agree with the facts known at the time or the actions of key stakeholders. BS was doing something far dumber than going fabless or doubling down on manufacturing. He was doing neither and aimlessly drifting towards a 100% garuenteed to fail and kill the whole company fab-lite strategy. Imagine Intel with the currently floundering Intel products. But now 18A is like 2 years out still, Pantherlake is an N3 product, Intel 4 would have probably been lower yield/more expensive (ala icelake or broadwell) and also weaker, GNR/SRF would have been weaker and like 6-12mo later, there would be no external revenue ever, and all future parts are large low margin tiles designs that are TSMC only, and old reliable (Intel 7) is still being used as a crutch for mainstream parts in 2027. That is the future BS seemed to be charting for Intel.

Find me one point where this or anything even remotely close to this has been said. I'll wait.

One, based on how you have described your career in the past that is a disingenuous way to describe what you did. Two your experience is a decade plus out of date. Three your experience is with memory which is a different world from logic and wasn't Intel's main field of expertise at the time. Four Intel entered into a JV with Micron specifically because they would have thought they needed the help. Five memory TD was never done by PTD or LTD, but by a completely separate CA/NM (depending on which period you want to look at) team.

No they don't. Post financial crisis to D1X mod 3 finishing in 2022, Intel built a "grand" total of 2 development fabs and 1 HVM fab. And that is with process complexity growing approximately 2X over the same period (assuming a 15% jump for each node and two 15% jumps at 14 and 10). During the same period TSMC built 5 development fabs and many dozens of HVM fabs. Everybody knows anything knows Intel logic process technology development was operating on a fraction of TSMC'S TD budget. Frankly I often wonder how Intel didn't get passed sooner by literally everyone else especially with the subpar equipment they were using and the cultural issues that supposedly got even worse after Bill Holt left.
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2024-intel-comeback-chipmaking/

In this article, Pat Gelsinger suggested that if he had not joined Intel as CEO, Intel would have shut down the development fabs and sold the manufacturing assets for cents on the dollar. This suggests that Bob Swan’s intention was to go fabless all the way.
 
They are talking with everyone. Seems like TSMC said no. they would be a huge help to GF, UMC, Tower and it could be a JV partnership (AMFAB). Those companies do foundry and IFS can bring advanced tech
How can any of these potential mergers or joint ventures be approved by China? If Intel and Towel cannot get approval from China, how could these other options be feasible? Does Intel believe that the relationship between Trump and Xi is favorable?
 
How can any of these potential mergers or joint ventures be approved by China? If Intel and Towel cannot get approval from China, how could these other options be feasible? Does Intel believe that the relationship between Trump and Xi is favorable?
thete is no intel just the board 🤣
 
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2024-intel-comeback-chipmaking/

In this article, Pat Gelsinger suggested that if he had not joined Intel as CEO, Intel would have shut down the development fabs and sold the manufacturing assets for cents on the dollar. This suggests that Bob Swan’s intention was to go fabless all the way.
If that was BS's strategy he would have done it rather than wasting money on things that had no place in his vision of intel. With that said what Pat suggested would have been the obvious end result of that "strategy". After all what is the point of building fabs and developing process technology with no intention of using it. And without a viable foundry buisness or business from Intel products Intel's manufacturing organization is basically only worth the value of the fab shells and the equipment inside them.

So Pat is right about what would have happened if BS stayed CEO for another 4 years. However that wouldn't have been from a coherent strategy but due to a lack of vision. Even if you really wanted to split the company the only way to do that and not incinerate your balance sheet is going through with foundry. If Intel investors have no interest in Intel's fabs until they break even, GF TSMC Tower etc sure as hell have no interest in them without a major discount.
 
Isn't that the root cause of this issue bean counters at Intel ?
I don't think issues are just financials (expensive ramp and lack of capacity), if you are not able to put together a working PDK and at least a basic IP. Irrational analysis says Intel's 18A parametric yield sucks because PDK is bad. It's just a rumor, but these guys (around semianalysis) are often close to the truth. Pat was quite right about it - if you have great technology, people will come, invest / use it. Unfortunately, 18A apparently sucks, because of unusable PDK.

Did Intel even create proper PDK for Intel 3 process?
 
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I don't think issues are just financials (expensive ramp and lack of capacity), if you are not able to put together a working PDK and at least a basic IP. Irrational analysis says Intel's 18A parametric yield sucks because PDK is bad. It's just a rumor, but these guys (around semianalysis) are often close to the truth. Pat was quite right about it - if you have great technology, people will come, invest / use it. Unfortunately, 18A apparently sucks, because of unusable PDK.

Did Intel even create proper PDK for Intel 3 process?
I think for 18A PDKs @Daniel Nenni would have a better idea.

For Intel 3 it uses Industry standard PDKs and how good they are only a third Party can tell cause Intel design have been used to Intel PDK Since the beginning of PDK?
 
Intel is commonly believed to have had more scale on 10nm than TSMC had on N5 back in 2021. Even the most conservative tecinsights estimates had the Intel 10nm factory network at well over a million wafers per year at peak ramp. There is no indication that scale was ever a problem at that time. If 1M WSPY was insufficient to amortize the cost of technology TSMC would not have even gotten to 28nm. Also i10nm is probably the most cost ineffective process in semiconductor history. Only a fool would blindly extrapolate 10nm being cost ineffective to mean that all other Intel processes till the end of time would be as bad or worse.

Outsourcing started from insufficient capacity and then continued due to a lack of faith in Intel's own ability to advance Moore's Law. Talk of outsourcing CPUs only happened after 7nm was delayed. Unless you think BS was lying and he already committed to N3 and beyond for CPUs with red ink before he even said that he was beginning to investigate that option. There is also the little detail that LTD wasn't shutdown as well as D1X3 and Fab34/44 construction continuing during BS's tenure which he would have stopped if his intent was to take Intel fabless. Intel themselves said they had no clue exactly how Intel's cost compared to equivalent foundry processes and that the new accounting structure was being implemented specifically so they could understand areas they were deficient. Untangling the numbers took if memory serves over a year from Intel saying they would do it.
Everything I stated is 100% true and I can discuss on the phone how we know this, how it can be verified, and answer all your questions. I also have presentations predicting what happened now 3-4 years ago www.mkwventures.com. I will have posting soon telling you what will happen in 2027.

I didnt mean to offend the Intel TD people. TD engineers are doing a great job on technology and the Intel issue is financial. I think you highlight a belief (right or wrong) many in Oregon have. very enlightening, thanks

For Lent, I will abstain from piling on Intel for 40 days and I will join Pat in praying for Intel people (Sorry Pat, Im not fasting).
 
Everything I stated is 100% true and I can discuss on the phone how we know this, how it can be verified, and answer all your questions. I also have presentations predicting what happened now 3-4 years ago www.mkwventures.com. I will have posting soon telling you what will happen in 2027.

I didnt mean to offend the Intel TD people. TD engineers are doing a great job on technology and the Intel issue is financial. I think you highlight a belief (right or wrong) many in Oregon have. very enlightening, thanks

For Lent, I will abstain from piling on Intel for 40 days and I will join Pat in praying for Intel people (Sorry Pat, Im not fasting).

"I didnt mean to offend the Intel TD people. TD engineers are doing a great job on technology and the Intel issue is financial."

Intel broke ground on its Ohio fab project in September 2022. If it does go into high volume production around 2030-2031 as described in Intel's latest updates, it will take eight years or more for anyone to see revenue coming from this Ohio fab.

If we consider that Intel was allocated $7.86 billion in federal grants through the Chips Act and has received $2.2 billion so far, this $6.9 billion spending at the Intel Ohio site for the 2030 high volume production date doesn't seem to be a well-thought-out action.

 
Intel went overboard by targeting to go to leading foundry sites at multiple places, instead of focusing of doing it at one place and as we see progress start targeting multiple locations. Would have given enough time to invest in Foundry as well as Products along with building to take on the market soon.
 
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