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Chips Act Money should go to TSM or Samsung

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
Chips act funds should go to TSM or Samsung and be an investment in a stock issue. Giving money to Intel and not getting stock in return sets a horrible example for all US industries when you give money to a company that had the lead and blew it. Any money should also be considered senior money with the government to be paid ahead of all creditors. Rewarding failure should never be something the US government invests in.
 
Giving funds to TSM or Samsung is not only Un-Patriotic but also, an act of giving hard earned US tax-payers' money to aid foreign competitors. Granted, Intel's top mgmt of the past screwed up, but the new mgmt is trying hard to turn around. Chips act funds should be given to Intel, Texas Instrument & other semi firms that has FABS in the USA. Go USA!
 
Giving funds to TSM or Samsung is not only Un-Patriotic but also, an act of giving hard earned US tax-payers' money to aid foreign competitors. Granted, Intel's top mgmt of the past screwed up, but the new mgmt is trying hard to turn around. Chips act funds should be given to Intel, Texas Instrument & other semi firms that has FABS in the USA. Go USA!
Backing failure sets a horrible example and the money would only be spent on US facilities when we can't breed a winner we should bring the very best talent in-house and learn from the best. Just look at autos, we have learned much from foreign auto manufacturers when we were producing third-rate autos and now produce world-class autos thanks to the competition and bringing them into the US. We should do the same with chips. No country ever won any game by backing also-rans. We don't have the time frame to waste in this ever faster-moving world. Time is not tolerant to those that fall behind and Intel is a glaring example of this. Real patriots do not tolerate substandard results, they step forward and correct the problem and get the best expertise possible. We don't have years to waste in this ever faster-moving world.

Is Samsung investing in Texas and TSM in Arizona unpatriotic?
 
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Backing failure sets a horrible example and the money would only be spent on US facilities when we can't breed a winner we should bring the very best talent in-house and learn from the best. Just look at autos, we have learned much from foreign auto manufacturers when we were producing third-rate autos and now produce world-class autos thanks to the competition and bringing them into the US. We should do the same with chips. No country ever won any game by backing also-rans. We don't have the time frame to waste in this ever faster-moving world. Time is not tolerant to those that fall behind and Intel is a glaring example of this. Real patriots do not substandard results, they step forward and correct the problem and get the best expertise possible. We don't have years to waste in this ever faster-moving world.
I don't agree. Just because a company has a setback does not make them a loser forever. We'll see how things turn out with Intel, but the direction and strategy is looking a lot better than it did five to ten years ago.

Other than Tesla, which American automobile company is a world-class manufacturer? It would also seem that given the worldwide popularity of ever-larger sedans and SUVs, GM, Ford, and (what was) Chrysler seem to have taught the world more than they learned lately.
 
Giving funds to TSM or Samsung is not only Un-Patriotic but also, an act of giving hard earned US tax-payers' money to aid foreign competitors. Granted, Intel's top mgmt of the past screwed up, but the new mgmt is trying hard to turn around. Chips act funds should be given to Intel, Texas Instrument & other semi firms that has FABS in the USA. Go USA!

@dw_sohn,

The following is a definition of "Patriotic" from Oxford Language via Google search:

Patriotic: adjective
Having or expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country.

Do you think the day when Pat Gelsinger threatened to do more in Europe if Intel can't get the taxpayers' money from US government is the day Pat Gelsinger flushed his patriotism down the drain?


What Pat Gelsinger said is the opposite of "expressing devotion to and vigorous support for one's country". IMO, it's even lacking the minimum politeness a good American should have.
 
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TSM Chairman Mark Liu has US Nationality. 20%(6/29) of management team have US citizenship. Nearly 72% TSM stocks are owned by foreigners. Most of them are from US. I am wondering: tsmc is registered in Taiwan, but in realty is it a Taiwanese company? Interesting question.
1657863400760.png
 
TSM Chairman Mark Liu has US Nationality. 20%(6/29) of management team have US citizenship. Nearly 72% TSM stocks are owned by foreigners. Most of them are from US. I am wondering: tsmc is registered in Taiwan, but in realty is it a Taiwanese company? Interesting question.
View attachment 837
As far as US are concerned, the most important part of TSMC structure is the fact that most of their FABs and all R&D are located in Taiwan.
 
As far as US are concerned, the most important part of TSMC structure is the fact that most of their FABs and all R&D are located in Taiwan.

For DoD, DOE, NSA, NASA, or even NSC, their policy, strategy, and planning are often more practical than people thought. They may spend too much over the budget or complete the project 5 years late, but they do deliver the weapon systems eventually most time.

Many US defense contractors and national security related suppliers are using TSMC as their foundry partner. To bring TSMC advance manufacturing capabilities to US is a very practical decision for US government. As matter of fact, DoD was one of the lead agency in bringing TSMC to Phoenix Arizona. It makes more sense in terms of cost and time to delivery than asking DoD contractors to switch to an unknown or not well-established US foundry.

Some US companies are famous with their high profile CEOs but not always an on-time and capable supplier. They can scare DoD or DOE project managers away.
 
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Chips act funds should go to TSM or Samsung and be an investment in a stock issue. Giving money to Intel and not getting stock in return sets a horrible example for all US industries when you give money to a company that had the lead and blew it. Any money should also be considered senior money with the government to be paid ahead of all creditors. Rewarding failure should never be something the US government invests in.
Not sure what you are looking for; this is a repetition of several previous posts, and your audience is not lawmakers and probably not lobbyists.
 
If we are discussing national strategy, rather than arguing over particular firms that should or should not get taxpayer dollars (as I mentioned in another similar post, the CHIPS act as it stands now doesn't earmark to particular firms), it would be good to look at Taiwan's example in the 1970s.

I've been reading Tiger Technology by Mathews and Cho. Here's a particularly relevant quote (p. 194-195 of paperback edition):

---- begin quote ----

The aim of this chapter has been to demonstrate that the semiconductor industry in Taiwan did not simply 'evolve' through the operation of market forces or through decisions of multinational corporations to include Taiwan in their global production networks. Rather, the industry was created as a deliberate series of acts of public policy by the Taiwanese authorities. In the 1970s, these steps started with the building of technological capabilities, leveraging the skills and knowledge required from all available sources, but concentrating them first in the public-sector laboratories of ITRI. When the time was judged ripe to involve firms, it was again the public authorities who seeded the development with the creation of UMC as an act of public entrepreneurship, in pure Gerschenkronian fashion.

Likewise the industry was propagated through the creation of public resources in the form of the Hsinchu Park, the Common Design Center located on the park (to spark the formation of small IC design firms) and the provision of a public IC foundry in the form of TSMC. The industry's technological capabilities were deepened through such programs as the submicron project, while they were broadened through the managed extension of the scope of activities, for example, in silicon wafer fabrication. All the while the Taiwan authorities were encouraging the private sector to take initiatives and assume more responsibility for technological and market expansion.

This the industry was doing by the 1990s, as firms initiated technology leverage agreements for themselves --- notably in the case of DRAMs --- and internationalised their operations. The public authorities meanwhile turned their attention to the sparking of new follow-up industries, such as LCDs and other flat panel displays which, after repeated efforts, were flourishing in Taiwan by the end of the 1990s. All of this adds up to a powerful system of continuous technological leverage and diffusion, managed by institutions crafted for the purpose. It can most fittingly be described as a national system of economic learning.

---- end quote ----

Mathews and Cho's thesis throughout the book (more or less) is that Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore achieved successful latecomer status in the semiconductor industry by organized activities to license and disseminate existing technology via national institutions, going through several stages, the last of which is to let private industry mature mostly on its own.

Since the US semiconductor industry is already mature, one question becomes: what do we need to do to overcome shortcomings that the market economy is unlikely to achieve on its own? (supply chain robustness, for example?)

If we're just looking to put our national thumb on the balance scale to make US semiconductor companies / equipment companies have a level playing field compared to other countries' incentives... well... not sure how likely that is to succeed. But at least there is a tangible public benefit through the likelihood of increased tax revenue if US companies (or foreign companies with US manufacturing presence) succeed.
 
TSM Chairman Mark Liu has US Nationality. 20%(6/29) of management team have US citizenship. Nearly 72% TSM stocks are owned by foreigners. Most of them are from US. I am wondering: tsmc is registered in Taiwan, but in realty is it a Taiwanese company? Interesting question.
View attachment 837

If you been in semi for long enough, you know how much Arab oil money is in the industry, hiding behind funds like Black Rock. This however doesn't mean everybody in the industry have to start speaking Arabic.
 
For DoD, DOE, NSA, NASA, or even NSC, their policy, strategy, and planning are often more practical than people thought. They may spend too much over the budget or complete the project 5 years late, but they do deliver the weapon systems eventually most time.

Many US defense contractors and national security related suppliers are using TSMC as their foundry partner. To bring TSMC advance manufacturing capabilities to US is a very practical decision for US government. As matter of fact, DoD was one of the lead agency in bringing TSMC to Phoenix Arizona. It makes more sense in terms of cost and time to delivery than asking DoD contractors to switch to an unknown or not well-established US foundry.

It may be practical to ensure a very short-term availability of ICs for some weapon systems, but it does near nothing long term. In case of conflict in Asia, stocks of input materials will run out within weeks, Taiwanese engineers (Taiwanese Americans inclusively) will leave to fight for their country, tricky machinery with single source suppliers, and maintenance know-how will go dark, metrology, and continuous process tuning will have to be stopped without guidance from the mothership in Hsinchu.


Defence production value of a fab is extremely small, and any investment in that will not cover the colossal long-term costs of protracted military conflict. Instead, I will argue, more weapons, and more preemptive military action is a way more effective defence investment.

Domestic chip production is not a valid function for US military defence potential. US will face a nation ending crisis, if the international trade will go down, even if it will preserve physical chipmaking capability.

Just remove word Taiwan from all negative scenarios, and replace it with Korea, Japan, Thailand, or Malaysia. It will not make much difference: world trade down == US down.
 
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I get the sentiment but one needs to be aware that the State Department budget is already huge ($60B annually).

By looking at the details of FY2022 US Department of State $58.5 billion spending request, I will hesitate to use words like "already huge" to describe it. In this case the context and content are both important.

Department of State budget covers a lot of areas such as USAID, participating in international organizations (UN, WTO, WHO, etc.), peace keeping, humanitarian assistance, refugee assistance, economic development in developing countries, Covid-19 vaccine and test assistance in poor countries, climate change related programs, international narcotics control program, and the US diplomatic missions across the globe, to name a few. Although it failed from time to time, in most cases Department of State is trying to make the world more peaceful.

On the other hand, we know in FY2022:

1. US Department of Defense budget is $777.7 billion.

2. Department of Energy will spend $20.87 to $26.52 billion in nuclear weapons related programs.

3. National Intelligence Program (ODNI, CIA, various agencies, not including military intelligence) budget request is about $62 billion.

4. Department of Veterans Affairs budget request is $301.4 billion.

Just these four areas will consume more than US$1.16 trillion in FY2022 alone for fighting the war, preparing the US for the war, or taking care retired, injured, or the families soldiers left behind.

If we can spend $1.16 trillion for the wars, we can definitely spend $58 billion for the peace and do more.
 
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The most problematic trouble-makers on the planet are not serious about diplomacy. I doubt increased State Department spending would have any substantial effect whatsoever.
It's not always about direct negotiation or immediate results. Sometimes the general political and economic environment in a country affects its actions, and indirect aid or attempts to improve relations can make a significant difference in the long term, or can help leverage particular situations.
 
It's not always about direct negotiation or immediate results. Sometimes the general political and economic environment in a country affects its actions, and indirect aid or attempts to improve relations can make a significant difference in the long term, or can help leverage particular situations.

It wouldn't. Diplomacy, and military force are orthogonal. While wars end with diplomacy, diplomats don't end wars.

Countries start wars when they are at the apex economically, or when they think they need to start a war before the economy gets worse.

This way, the Second Chinese Civil War will start when China will get few years of good growth.
 
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