Indeed. The AMSL CEO said the sanctions were "economically motivated": https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202409/1319346.shtml
TSMC Says It Has Alerted US of Potential China Ai Chip Curbs Violation
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fansink
Well-known member
Is that why the Dutch government just tightened DUV controls a few weeks ago?
Not so clear. Sounds like Techinsights uncovered the illicit origin of the Ascend 910B components. Kind of crazy that Huawei thought they could get away with it. Now they have totally lost face by claiming they had a completely mainland China-built product. Gotta be a total embarrassment to the government as well.By all accounts, TSMC discovered the plot, shut it down, and alerted the US, accordingly.
fansink
Well-known member
According to @samwilde there is no teardown at Techinsights - https://semiwiki.com/forum/index.ph...hina-ai-chip-curbs-violation.21298/post-76407
Is Techinsights a reputable source?
Maybe you could provide a link to the teardown?
DUV machines were restricted from 2023 and recently they included older models. However, it's not a blanket ban, it's on a case by case basis.
Huawei
Ren Zhengfei (任正非) founded Huawei in 1987 and continues to lead as CEO. Three other executives—Guo Ping (郭平), Eric Xu (徐直军), and Ken Hu (胡厚崑)—run its three main business units and manage day-to-day operations under Ren. Huawei, one of the world’s leading communications equipment suppliers, has suffered under US sanctions that cut off its access to advanced foundry services. As a result, the company’s revenue declined sharply in 2021. Even so, it remains profitable and holds more than $20 billion in cash.Despite briefly achieving the worldwide lead in smartphone shipments, Huawei saw its market share plummet below 4% following the sale of its low-end Honor brand and has been unable to ship many of its high-end models owing to a lack of chips. After this consumer-revenue decline, the company generates about 15% of its revenue from its enterprise business. This unit sells standard servers and networking equipment.
Through its HiSilicon subsidiary, the company designed its deep-learning architecture, called DaVinci, which appears in its Ascend products. Huawei offers the Ascend 310 for edge systems and the Ascend 910 for data centers. The DaVinci architecture supports both FP16 and INT8 data, so it can handle either training or inference. The sanctions, however, prevent the company from acquiring these chips from TSMC.
Key Features and Performance
The Ascend 910 contains 32 DaVinci cores connected to a network-on-a-chip (NoC) mesh. Each core contains 4,096 units that can each perform one FP16 MAC or two INT8 MACs per cycle at 1.0 GHz. Thus, the chip has a peak performance of 256Tflop/s (FP16) or 512 TOPS (INT8). The design has a total of 84MB of on-chip SRAM, including a 32MB buffer that all the cores share. In addition, it connects to four HBM2 channels that deliver a total of 1,228GB/s of off-die memory bandwidth to 32GB of memory, enabling it to operate efficiently on large models that don’t fit in the on-die memory.Unlike most accelerators, the processor includes 16 Arm-compatible CPU cores, allowing it to run without an external host processor. The company reused the Taishan Arm v8.2 CPU from its Kunpeng 920 server processor. All 16 cores share a 16MB L3 cache, which connects with a pair of DDR4 SDRAM channels for external memory. The CPU subsystem enables the chip to run a full operating system. The 910 also has four video decoders.
In TSMC’s 7nm EUV (N7+) technology, the compute diemeasures 456mm2 including on-die memories plus the Arm CPU complex. The Ascend 910 separates I/O functions into a 168mm2 die called Nimbus, which is likely built in an older 12nm or 16nm process to reduce cost. Nimbus provides 24 lanes of PCIe Gen4 and two different cache-coherent interfaces: CCIX and a proprietary port called HCCS. Three HCCS ports, operating at 30GB/s each, enable a fully connected four-chip cluster. For larger clusters, the chip also has dual 100Gbps Ethernet ports that handle RDMA (RoCEv2), providing a low-latency interconnect for multiple chassis. Huawei rates the Ascend 910 chip at 310Wbut the complete accelerator card at 350W.
The company has announced several products using the Ascend 910: the Atlas 300AI training card, Atlas 800 AI server, and Atlas 900 AI cluster. The Atlas 800 server integrates eight Ascend 910 modules, four Kunpeng 920 processors, and 8x100GbE ports. The Atlas 300 PCIe accelerator card and Atlas 800 server began shipping in 1Q20. The Atlas 900 cluster, which we assume is primarily intended for the company’s public cloud services (Huawei Cloud), has up to 4,096 DaVinci nodes.
The Atlas 200module, which employs the Ascend 310 chip, targets edge systems that use less than 10W. To reduce power, this chip has only two DaVinci cores running at 500MHz, generating a peak performance of 16 TOPS (INT8). It also features eight Cortex-A55 CPU cores, a single Cortex-M3 CPU for real-time functions, and a video engine capable of decoding sixteen 1080p video channels at 30fps in H.264 or H.265 format. The module sports a full set of I/Os including four PCIe Gen3 lanes, USB, Gigabit Ethernet, and serial ports. Packing 4GB of LPDDR4X DRAM, the module has a typical power of 5.5W; the 8GB version requires 8W. These modules entered production in 3Q19.
To program its Atlas devices, Huawei developed a neural network framework called MindSpore, which it recently open-sourced. It also provides drivers for standard frameworks such as Pytorch and TensorFlow. It hopes to build a new ecosystem around MindSpore, but the standard frameworks allow customers to easily port existing neural networks. The company has expanded the software stack with algorithm libraries, pre-trained models, and other development aids.
Huawei has disclosed little benchmark data for the Ascend 910. It reports a speed of 1,787 IPS for a single chip when training ResNet-50—9% better than Nvidia’s V100. It also posted MLPerf Training results for a 512-chip cluster—again, only for ResNet-50—that was 32% faster than a similar cluster of V100 GPUs. On Bert-base, a single Ascend 910 achieves 210 sentences per second, about 25% ahead of the V100. All of the company’s tests employ its MindSpore software.
Conclusions
As Huawei’s first AI accelerator for the data center, the Ascend 910 is impressive. It comes within 20% of Nvidia’s A100 in peak performance on both FP16 (training) and INT8 (inference) data while using slightly less power. It’s also similar in on-chip-cache size and HBM bandwidth. More importantly, it achieves about 90% of the A100’s MLPerf score for training ResNet-50 when both are running in a 512-chip cluster. Despite being surpassed by Nvidia, the Ascend 910 gives Huawei customers a viable alternative for AI acceleration.US sanctions, however, cut off Huawei’s supply of custom Ascend chips, and it can no longer supply systems using the accelerator, although customers can still rent it through the Huawei Cloud service. The sanctions also prevent the company from deploying design improvements, including architecture changes and a move to 5nm. In the meantime, Nvidia and other competitors will forge ahead. Until Huawei can resolve the US sanctions, realizing its AI dream will be impossible.
Huawei | TechInsights
Ren Zhengfei (任正非) founded Huawei in 1987 and continues to lead as CEO. Three other executives—Guo Ping (郭平), Eric Xu (徐直军), and Ken Hu (胡厚崑)—run its three main business units and manage day-to-day operations under Ren. Huawei, one of the world’s leading communications equipment suppliers, has...
There's only the 910 from before the sanctions in effect. https://semiwiki.com/forum/index.ph...-chip-curbs-violation.21298/page-2#post-76455
fansink
Well-known member
This is the first related article I could find, and it is coincident with my earlier statement, "TSMC discovered the plot, shut it down, and alerted the US, accordingly"
No mention of Techinsights or teardown.
The article states, "The disclosure came to light through Financial Times, citing inside sources."
TSMC Blocks Huawei's AI Chip Maneuver Amidst Tech Rebound | Technology
TSMC reported a potential attempt by Huawei to bypass U.S. export controls preventing them from manufacturing AI chips for the Chinese firm. Informed by a client order resembling Huawei's Ascend 910B chip, TSMC alerted the U.S. Commerce Department. Both the Department and Huawei have yet to comment.
www.devdiscourse.com
Reuters, who I view as one of the most reputable, attributes it to TechInsisghts even though TechInsights hasn't done a publicly-available teardown report on the Ascend 910B (only the original 910).
Then again, we have Huawei saying the 910B was never launched in a response to Bloomberg ???
In its own statement, Huawei said it hasn’t “produced any chips via TSMC after the implementation of the amendments made by the US Department of Commerce to its FDPR that target Huawei in 2020,” a reference to the foreign direct product rule — a US trade restriction. “Huawei has never launched the 910B chip,” the company said.
Who knows ??
I would imagine TSMC KYC would be quite strong.By all accounts, TSMC discovered the plot, shut it down, and alerted the US, accordingly.
So I am surprised this was discovered after the fact.
Wonder what lists they use to search
fansink
Well-known member
Funny how Techinsights does a teardown "of the year", but doesn't make it publicly available.
Funnier yet, how the first actual publicly available reports never mention "teardown", but all mention Financial Times as the original source, and of course FT never mentions teardown:
Even the first Reuters report (below) does not mention teardown, but it does state: "TSMC informed the U.S. Commerce Department after a customer placed orders for a chip similar to Huawei's Ascend 910B, a processor designed for large language model training, a Financial Times report said earlier in the day, citing people familiar with the matter."
TSMC says it alerted US to potential violation of China AI chip controls
Chipmaker reported having received order for processor resembling that of Chinese company Huawei
www.ft.com
TSMC says it has alerted US of potential China AI chip curbs violation
(Reuters) -Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) said on Tuesday it has informed the United States of a potential attempt to have it manufacture AI chips for China's Huawei in
emeatribune.com
TSMC alerted U.S. to potential violation of China AI export controls, FT says - TipRanks.com
Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company said it alerted the U.S. government to a potential attempt to have it manufacture AI chips for Huawei in a circumvention ...
www.tipranks.com
You're ignoring the informal ecosystem networks - This is speculative but typical of how stuff goes:
* TechInsights is beginning a teardown and sees something that doesn't look right with the 910B. They have just de-lidded the package, but haven't even gotten to separating the die and the etch-back of the passivation topcoat.
* The lead at TechInsights calls his buddy at TSMC and says this chipset / process looks a lot like it was fabbed by you, not SMIC. They might even say that this die "looks almost exactly the same as the 910 we just finished our report on"
* TSMC holds an urgent meeting and someone says "Oh shit, that unsanctioned startup we sold to with the huge LLM accelerator die seemed a little dodgy". The customer is cut off, though only after they have received an initial batch of wafers.
* TSMC formally informs the U.S. Commerce Department that a dodgy customer placed orders for a chip similar to Huawei's Ascend 910B and has received some initial wafers.
* All hell breaks lose.
* Huawei says that they haven't received any wafers from TSMC since 2020 and that they never released the 910B (that's their gist of their statement to the press in response)
* The press in Taiwan delights in questioning whether SMIC built any Ascend 910B chips as they originally claimed.
TSMC chips in Huawei AI accelerator cast doubt on SMIC's capabilities
TSMC chips in Huawei AI accelerator cast doubt on SMIC's capabilities
Chinese foundry Semiconductor Manufacturing International (SMIC) has found itself in a precarious position following a recent TechInsights teardown report concerning a TSMC-manufactured 7nm chip in a Huawei AI accelerator.
www.digitimes.com
* We circle back to rumors of horrible Huawei / SMIC yield issues in June 2024 when Huawei was still "making" Ascend 910B chips.
Huawei Faces Production Challenges with 20% Yield Rate for AI Chip
[News] Huawei Faces Production Challenges with 20% Yield Rate for AI Chip | TrendForce News
Previously, Huawei claimed its second-generation AI chip "Ascend 910B" could compete with NVIDIA's A100 and was working to replace NVIDIA, which holds...
www.trendforce.com
cheesehead
Member
Did anybody already find some information on which TSMC customer is suspected to have forwarded this technology?
It must be an otherwise respected company. I doubt TSMC will just manufacture such complicated products for anyone who pays their bill.
It must be an otherwise respected company. I doubt TSMC will just manufacture such complicated products for anyone who pays their bill.
Correct!
The customer must have passed all the checks that TSMC do with all new customers.
I would like to see an audit of how this company got through and what lengths TSMC went to check out the customer.
I am part of this process for our company and you have to be very very careful as the penalties are very very severe
Dismantling of China's Huawei 910B reveals TSMC chips? Rumor has it that it is stocked before 2019
Newtalk News
international
The international media "Reuters" reported today (23rd) that the technology research company "TechInsights" disassembled China's Huawei 's AI server chip "Ascend 910B" and found that it uses a chip produced by Taiwan's TSMC. According to reports, TechInsights discovered this case a few weeks ago and immediately notified TSMC. Since Huawei was included in the U.S. trade control list as early as 2019, TSMC immediately notified the U.S. Department of Commerce of the matter and issued a statement on the 21st. , explaining that "it will no longer supply chips to Huawei since mid-September 2020" and "has proactively contacted the Ministry of Commerce regarding this matter." At present, TechInsights' official report has not been released and it declined to comment on the matter; Huawei stated in a statement that it has not produced any chips through TSMC since the implementation of the US ban in 2020.
Based on information from all parties, it was China’s Huawei “Ascend 910B” AI server chip that was found to contain content that violated the 2020 U.S. export ban on the export of high-end AI chips to China on the grounds of national security; the chip was considered The company’s most advanced AI chip product, official announcements boasted that the performance of this chip has surpassed NVIDIA’s A100 chip. After disassembly, it was discovered that the TSMC chip is "one of a kind" in a multi-chip system. "Reuters" reported that the inspection report illustrates how difficult it is for companies and regulators that produce high-demand products to enforce export controls; it also shows Huawei's continued demand for the most cutting-edge chips.
The report stated that the U.S. Commerce Department was aware of "notifications of possible violations of U.S. export controls" but could not comment on whether any investigation was ongoing. Another media outlet, the Financial Times (FT), quoted another person familiar with the matter as saying that the U.S. Department of Commerce is having conversations with TSMC about possible attempts to circumvent U.S. export controls, but there is no indication that TSMC has maliciously violated regulations. Behavior.
Huawei, headquartered in Shenzhen, issued a statement in response that it will not produce any chips through TSMC after 2020; it is currently unclear how the chips flowed to Huawei. Some industry insiders claimed that Huawei released the "Ascend 910" chip series in 2019. These chips may be inventory produced by TSMC before export controls.
newtalk.tw
Newtalk News
international
- Comprehensive report by Wu Cishan
The international media "Reuters" reported today (23rd) that the technology research company "TechInsights" disassembled China's Huawei 's AI server chip "Ascend 910B" and found that it uses a chip produced by Taiwan's TSMC. According to reports, TechInsights discovered this case a few weeks ago and immediately notified TSMC. Since Huawei was included in the U.S. trade control list as early as 2019, TSMC immediately notified the U.S. Department of Commerce of the matter and issued a statement on the 21st. , explaining that "it will no longer supply chips to Huawei since mid-September 2020" and "has proactively contacted the Ministry of Commerce regarding this matter." At present, TechInsights' official report has not been released and it declined to comment on the matter; Huawei stated in a statement that it has not produced any chips through TSMC since the implementation of the US ban in 2020.
Based on information from all parties, it was China’s Huawei “Ascend 910B” AI server chip that was found to contain content that violated the 2020 U.S. export ban on the export of high-end AI chips to China on the grounds of national security; the chip was considered The company’s most advanced AI chip product, official announcements boasted that the performance of this chip has surpassed NVIDIA’s A100 chip. After disassembly, it was discovered that the TSMC chip is "one of a kind" in a multi-chip system. "Reuters" reported that the inspection report illustrates how difficult it is for companies and regulators that produce high-demand products to enforce export controls; it also shows Huawei's continued demand for the most cutting-edge chips.
The report stated that the U.S. Commerce Department was aware of "notifications of possible violations of U.S. export controls" but could not comment on whether any investigation was ongoing. Another media outlet, the Financial Times (FT), quoted another person familiar with the matter as saying that the U.S. Department of Commerce is having conversations with TSMC about possible attempts to circumvent U.S. export controls, but there is no indication that TSMC has maliciously violated regulations. Behavior.
Huawei, headquartered in Shenzhen, issued a statement in response that it will not produce any chips through TSMC after 2020; it is currently unclear how the chips flowed to Huawei. Some industry insiders claimed that Huawei released the "Ascend 910" chip series in 2019. These chips may be inventory produced by TSMC before export controls.
拆解中國華為910B竟有台積電晶片？ 傳恐為2019前庫存 | 國際 | Newtalk新聞
國際媒體《路透社》(Reuters)今天(23日)報導，科技研究公司「TechInsights」拆解中國華為的AI伺服器晶片「升騰910B」(Ascend 910B)，發現裡面使用到由台灣台積電生產的一款晶片。報導稱，TechInsights在數週前發現這個案件，隨即通報台積電，而由於華為早在201
newtalk.tw
In 2022, TSMC canceled chip production for Biren, who was potentially competing with NVIDIA, in order to comply with the export controls. https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2022/10/24/2003787603
They used publicly available information.
Presumably, the team handling Huawei designs should handle all Chinese customers.
Do we know who the "middleman" was?
After this Biren episode, it should mean TSMC can recognize a Huawei proxy.