Array
(
    [content] => 
    [params] => Array
        (
            [0] => /forum/threads/non-engineer-staffed-ieee-usa-sells-out-us-electrical-engineering-jobs.1064/
        )

    [addOns] => Array
        (
            [DL6/MLTP] => 13
            [Hampel/TimeZoneDebug] => 1000070
            [SV/ChangePostDate] => 2010200
            [SemiWiki/Newsletter] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/WPMenu] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/XPressExtend] => 1000010
            [ThemeHouse/XLink] => 1000970
            [ThemeHouse/XPress] => 1010570
            [XF] => 2021770
            [XFI] => 1050270
        )

    [wordpress] => /var/www/html
)

Non-engineer-staffed IEEE-USA sells out US electrical engineering jobs

The IEEE is an international organization as far as I can tell, so it's probably not in their remit to preserve jobs in the USA.

In theory the IEEE is a democratic organization which you can join and attempt to steer if you don't like what they are doing, although it may be pay-to-play in some corners.

Having been an H1-B immigrant, I can't say that I was treated as "slave" labor, and seems likely that allowing more immigrants into the USA will help keep the industry here. It would appear the bulk of the EDA software industry has been moved to Bangalore, and personally I'd rather they had offered free/extended H1-Bs so that it stayed here (they won't interview me for the Bangalore jobs).
 
I agree with you.
minhong1.jpg

minhong2.jpg

minhong3.jpg

 
Wow! Interesting email exchange! Please read it and share your thoughts as this is a very important topic!

"the complaints about skill shortages boil down to the fact that employers can't get candidates to accept jobs at the wages offered. That's an affordability problem, not a skill shortage. A real shortage means not being able to find appropriate candidates at market-clearing wages. We wouldn't say there is a shortage of diamonds when they are incredibly expensive; we can buy all we want at the prevailing prices."

Out of my four children I will NOT have one engineer. So far I have a math teacher and a fireman/paramedic. Next will probably be an occupational therapist and my youngest is looking at veterinary science. Disappointed? Not really. I told my kids to chose something they love because they will be doing it for a long long time. Retirement will probably be pushed out to 75 years old by then!

My kids grew up with leading edge technology so they may take it for granted. As a parent, as a co-creater of said technology, it is much easier to love it.

Thank you for posting!

D.A.N.
 
It's IEEE- USA, not IEEE

The IEEE is an international organization as far as I can tell, so it's probably not in their remit to preserve jobs in the USA..

Read the exchange carefully. This is not IEEE, which I agree is an international organization.

This is IEEE-USA whose members are US only and who is chartered to address issues affecting its US membership and their interests.

I too am an immigrant. Had to stand in line for two years, unable to leave the country while my green card was in progress. 6 months, just to get into the country, originally, under an internal company transfer. Had to wait 5 years to get citizenship while holding a green card. Leave for a year, and the green card would be void.

You want to immigrate, then I say you do it the way we had to - many immigrants feel cutting the line is unfair to both other qualified immigrants in the queue and to domestic workers. Show that there is not one US engineer (permanent resident counts, not just citizen) that can fill the position and that you have special skills, like I had to, by placing an ad for 30 days in EE Times or someplace like that. In this day and age, that would be an unemployed engineer, with "excessive experience", that easily fills almost any opening.

Few also know that there actually is an entrepreneur's visa program already in place, but it does not game the H1B quota to help universities with their foreign grad student glut and VC's cousins, nephews, and nieces don't get a free ticket into the country, making engineering immigration a social-class, instead of a brains, issue.

When the polticspeak says "not enough skilled US workers", this is what is going on, and where that e-mail exchange I posted nailed it - not enough American grad students. The universities screwed up, and are now shoving foreign students down companies' throats via this kind of lobbying, when companies like Intel and others want a healthy mix of foreign and domestic workers, and when military and aerospace contractors need citizen PhDs.
 
Last edited:
If someone gets a Ph.D. in STEM in an American University it was most likely paid for by a combination of US industry and government. If they cannot stay in the US and must return to their home country, we've just wasted ~$300-500k, not to mention the fact that that engineer improves the engineering capabilities of their own country.

Concerning fairness: Rules change, and that too bad. Unfairness ("cutting in line") is the result of manipulating policy for the common good. It is not hard to find someone who had it easier coming to this country, and millions who had it harder.

Concerning "universities screwed up": it is effectively free to get a Ph.D. in STEM (if you are a citizen and a smart and a little clever). I don't know how the government and universities could make it a better deal. I was faculty at a major research university for seven years, and there were still more slots for Ph.D. engineering students than qualified US applicants. I (probably) had a bias towards US students (easier to fund, less homesickness), but I still could not fill my funded slots with US students only.
 
Waste of money is correct

$300,000 to $500,000 taxpayer money, using your numbers, wasted on students who will return to China and India? It's not wasted at all. It goes straight into the pockets of professors, overhead, and to administrators. Almost zero goes to the student.

The cost of sending them back to jobs in their own country is indeed zero if the number of domestic students is kept in balance - and therein lies the rub. Foreign tuition has skewed the graduating class to where it now seems to matter, and it shouldn't. Foreign income should offset the costs of educating domestic students, with domestic education being the priority. Money, not education is an American priority, particularly in light of budget cuts where academic jobs are in jeopardy.

"Faced with sharp cuts in state funding, the 10-campus system is ramping up its campaign to recruit high-paying students from other states and countries, even as record numbers of California students seek a UC education." University of California Seeking Out-Of-State Students (do you think it is a coincidence that the sponsor of this House legislation is from California?????)

And you can't recruit that foreign tuition money if there are no jobs waiting for them in the promised land. A land where a PhD makes in one day, what a PhD back home makes in a month. Like all illegal or shady immigration policy/tolerance, the fault lies in the perpetrator, the recruiter, the employer, the school, not the worker or student. A student comes to the US with full intentions of working in the US after graduating, which is contrary to their stated intent on the student's visa. S/he, in fact, makes a promise that work WILL NOT be sought or engaged and that they will go home when they graduate. With fingers crossed behind the back and a wink at an employer who can get a slave PhD as a 33% off blue light special.

You have it bass ackwards and never ending. Anyone who has kids should be seriously concerned about the complacency and indifference being displayed by an ignorant public and naive professionals against the twisted goals of corporations and academia in terms of national security and economic interests. A national strategy in the USA is non-existent, while China just announced a petaflop supercomputer using processor chips it developed and fabricated at SMIC in China. The machine is to be used for "military purposes". That means simulation of nuclear weapons to increase yield. Why would they need to do that? Who taught them how to do that? In a world of 7B people and an ever increasing population, and in a world with finite and consumed resources, what will happen when resources do become scarce and they desperately feel the world's resources are theirs for the taking, just as the USA does today?

Someone has thought about that one. But not anyone in the USA. Too busy minting money to care. And that, is the downfall of every empire. Lack of vigilance, indifference, complacency, greed, and no long term cohesive strategy to win. Wars are won on economics - they are also fought over economics. And if you really want to win and take everything, push the red button.
 
Last edited:
...
I too am an immigrant. Had to stand in line for two years, unable to leave the country while my green card was in progress. 6 months, just to get into the country, originally, under an internal company transfer. Had to wait 5 years to get citizenship while holding a green card. Leave for a year, and the green card would be void.

You want to immigrate, then I say you do it the way we had to....

I say that sucks as a process, and it's particularly bad if you work for unreliable startups (as I did). I started on the process in 1991 and didn't get a Greencard until 2003 - with a 2 year stint back in the UK (unemployed) when my first H1 expired.

I say lets make it simpler: just have an immigration tax, as long as you pay it you get to stay and work. Pay enough tax and you get permanent residency, you stop paying it if you become a citizen.

After this morning's discussion on student loans on PBS I'd be surprised if any Americans will risk going to college.
 
Immigration tax

A PhD in China makes $800/month. A PhD in Silicon Valley, $10,000. Allocating $2200/month for living expenses, you are OK with an $7000/month immigration tax, then, to remove the financial disparity that creates palacial living conditions back home?

This is the math of illegal, or "cut in line", immigration. Stashed, send-home, entire wages, loyalty to the homeland with no intentions to stay and contribute to society, parasitic on taxpayers for services and education,, failure to culturally adjust and repatriate, while living with 8 guys in someone's converted garage.

If we're going to play a global economy game, the field has to be level. You can't have a domestic worker starving, while his neighbor sends money home to a palace because he makes 10X the wage in a foreign land.

A 70% immigration tax is ridiculous.....send them home, where they will have jobs and make great money as compared to their own society members and keep the economy going of the country that, as was said, has spent $500,000 educating you, by putting its domestic grads to work in balance with foreign workers.
 
rather shallow analysis by a "senior" member

I dont think there is much pay difference between a immigrant and a citizen. If you talk about demand-supply , I dont think the average slaaries are going down. I work in ASIC physical design and most of my friends are making 100k + . I feel the writer is just an insecure person having a mid life crisis. One of the main reasons the economy of USA has grown is because of "foreign brains" staying back. Just look at the number of indians and Asians in any semi company.

The only valid point is that - IEEE is a tech organisation. It should not be poking its nose in immigration policy matters.. But neither should a "senior member" take the opportunity to rant about his job insecurity.
 
ASIC Engineers can't read

Yes you have jobs. Yes you immigrated legally. Yes there are H1B quotas that were set for reasons. Yes IEEE is an international organization. All obvious facts that do not need restating.

I said this in a prior post, but you posted here with the primary agenda of name calling, not to post as an informed member of a society (are you a member of US society?) sliding into an abyss: IEEE-USA is not international. Its charter is US government affairs and liaison. Typical engineer...clueless, and could care less, about everything in the world except for the perfect spot to place a layout via. Read the link I provided at the outset of this thread about the staffing of IEEE-USA and about the background of the author of an email asking for member support of a legislative agenda the IEEE-USA staff supports. By rights, such a serious matter should be a ballot issue, IMO.

YOUR kids wanting to get into a US grad school in 5 years? Slim to zero chance, especially in the California public system where this legislation was birthed. A US job upon graduating? No chance. India, China, having jobs in 10 years? No chance. Vietnam, Cambodia, Nigeria...maybe. India is already suffering huge wage inflation; China is starting to see it as well. Altera poked its nose into Vietnam for a few months to start a design center there...cheap engineers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't understand - american kids will find it hard to get into US universities because of foreign students ?? I find that argument hard to believe ... Are there any facts that back that trend ?

The truth is , the semiconductor industry is run be indians and chinese workers. If you choose to be harsh with them , they will just migrate back to their own countries and start new companies..

If you want globalization - you will have to live with the consequences...
 
Andy T:

I'm don't have the energy to argue with your conspiracy theories.

However, a few corrections:

1) All of the foreign PhD students I advised took a pay cut to come to school. It was smaller opportunity cost than the US students, but it wasn't a increase. Factor in cost-of-living, and it might have been even. Even in the 90s and early 00s, a good graduate of IIT or Tsinghua made decent money back home. I imagine that is even more true today. So why are foreign students willing to make this sacrifice and US students are not?

2) You are correct that the UC's and other universities are trying to bring in more foreign students, but this is uncorrelated with immigration, or the likelihood that your kids can get a research position. A majority of the foreign students coming to the US now (as opposed to 10 years ago) want the cache of a US University on their resume, and they want to go back. Since research money (federal and corporate) effectively dried up in the last decade, universities are trying to find new revenue. I know that where I used to teach, Master's degrees used to be the booby prizes for failed PhDs, and the university "lost money" on them because we would fully sponsor them and not get much useful research out of them. Now they are the major revenue source for my former department. Foreign students, willing to pay to get a Master's degree. But the same professors are still looking for students to do full-time PhD research, and US students are preferred. Those are different bins as far as admissions go. Make it clear that your kids want research positions, with a possible PhD and they will be looked at differently.

I won't disagree with you about the lack of a long term plan in our country. Nor will I disagree about the misplaced emphasis on short-term revenue over long-term value. I understand you are angry about this (I am too), but your rhetoric can alienate just about everyone. Example: I must have missed the meeting where the professors were told to line our pockets with the exploited sweat of our poor indentured graduate students. In my experience, most of the time when it looks like there is a conspiracy, it is a case of different entities making localized decisions to maximize their situation as a result of external policies and situations. We fix the root situation/policy and the chain of decisions that looked conspiratorial will fix itself.
 
Thanks for sharing the article, there are two things that I need to comment on the person that posted his views who is a Sr Member of IEEE truly hits the nail in the head. The issue with the H-1 visas is not the lack of qualified engineers and scientists in the country is the greed in the part of companies that want to get workers for cheap, the stupidity of Congress and the great job that those who lobby in behalf of companies like Microsoft do.

I have read the article in the WSJ that that fellow IEEE member mentioned and I highly recommend it. The last thing that it needs to be said even when we should not interfere in the internal affairs of the IEEE they must realize that their employees in one way or other work for the membership. Because our dues is what pays their salaries even when the Institute may get some money also from advertising and other contributions from the industry. So they must promote the causes of the engineers in particular those who are actively seeking employment and are not able to find it, because there is age discrimination and everybody knows it, but few are doing something about it.

Cheers
Rogelio
 
The same link I provided before, i am providing again....

I don't understand - american kids will find it hard to get into US universities because of foreign students ?? I find that argument hard to believe ... Are there any facts that back that trend ?

Citing the article from my prior post:

"Newly released UC data show that 18 percent of admitted students for fall 2011 were nonresidents, up from 14 percent last year and less than 12 percent two years ago. They made up 23 percent of admissions at San Diego, 30 percent at UCLA and 31 percent at Berkeley.
UC reported a slight increase in the number of California residents accepted to at least one of the UC campuses where they applied, but more were rejected by their first- and second-choice schools, and more were placed on wait lists." - University of California Seeking Out-Of-State Students

I am not being harsh to Chinese or Indian workers. They are legal immigrants, people who stood in line, who excelled, who had to wait for their "number" to get their green cards, cream of the crop, in balance with other workers of their time. Immigrants, as usual, are not the problem, though they are visible, so either inappropriately take the blame upon themselves, or have fingers pointed at them.

Government, and academic, policy is the problem here and when they muck things up, they reach for the big hammer to cover up messes of their own making. This is a big hammer, where in-state kids cannot get into schools now. With this legislation, it's going to be a horrible mess. But academics will continue to be fat dumb and happy despite budget cuts, no layoffs if their lobbyists can ram that bill through Congress under the usual lies and sleight of hand that a not exactly brilliant public buys into every single time.

You are in the US now (I assume...). Your kids, Americans (they are now, no matter how much the grandparents try to keep them from being so), even with 4.0 GPAs, will not be able to go to school in California. The kids can't get in if the funding cuts, and foreign student ratios, keep increasing. In the cited example, we see a 50% increase in out-of-state student percentage in a mere two years. You're an engineer - you have two points, now draw a straight line.....

;)
 
1) All of the foreign PhD students I advised took a pay cut to come to school. It was smaller opportunity cost than the US students, but it wasn't a increase. Factor in cost-of-living, and it might have been even. Even in the 90s and early 00s, a good graduate of IIT or Tsinghua made decent money back home. I imagine that is even more true today. So why are foreign students willing to make this sacrifice and US students are not?

Agreed. PhD from a reputable school in China, in a Chinese job, makes awesome money at $800/month or $9600/year as compared to most of the population back home.

If, however, the same kid has the economic class means (not everyone can afford to come to the USA like you've said, nor will the USA easily accept a peasant kid from a village), aka well to do parents, and comes to a school in the USA. Grad school pay is irrelevant, and a pittance as you have noted - but it doesn't matter in the grand scheme and I think is the point you are stuck on. The brass ring is graduating and being hired by an American company. A reputable school, and a freshly minted PhD means hugging $100,000/year. Making the math easy, that's 10X the money back home.

The dream, then, is to work for 5-10 years and you're golden for 10x that time afterwards when you return home. Recall that the PhD pay, as you and I seem to agree, was excellent money had they stayed home...BUT...now there's the "put the feet up for 40 years and live like a king" strategy by returning home with American riches (and a cushy management job if transferred to China).

LOL - the funny part of it is, we all fall into the same rut, and work until we drop dead at our desks. Kids, cars, houses....the American lifestyle infests most of us to where that pre-grad school fantasy, the immigrant fantasy of ratio'd big bucks being brought back home, was just that...a fantasy. For engineers, anyway. For the lawnmower man making $6/hr as compared to $0.30/hour back home - he's the one that has a villa on the Sea of Cortez, but has kids he barely knows.

Which one is smarter in the end?
 
Last edited:
IEEE-USA

Even better, for those of us in the US who are IEEE members a significant portion of our dues goes to IEEE-USA. On the other hand, professional organizations, like IEEE-SA (standards association) are left to fend for themselves. Which unfortunately makes IEEE-SA be creative about how they raise funding.
 
Hi Dan,
The IEEE-USA president has testifieid many times in the past that we needed more H1B engineers in order to increase jobs in America. The only increase I could see was for foreign engineers who continued the cliques of foreign engineers.
Posted by Jim
 
...The only increase I could see was for foreign engineers who continued the cliques of foreign engineers.
Posted by Jim

Apparently there is a large number of Scottish engineers in Silicon Valley, but so far I have not seen them form into any cliques. Most of the cliques I've seen seem to form out of graduates of particular US universities, but I'm not sure that "cliqueyness" is either good or bad.
 
Back
Top