Array
(
    [content] => 
    [params] => Array
        (
            [0] => /forum/threads/is-there-a-glass-ceiling-for-people-with-advanced-engineering-degrees-at-intel.20945/page-2
        )

    [addOns] => Array
        (
            [DL6/MLTP] => 13
            [Hampel/TimeZoneDebug] => 1000070
            [SV/ChangePostDate] => 2010200
            [SemiWiki/Newsletter] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/WPMenu] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/XPressExtend] => 1000010
            [ThemeHouse/XLink] => 1000970
            [ThemeHouse/XPress] => 1010570
            [XF] => 2021770
            [XFI] => 1050270
        )

    [wordpress] => /var/www/html
)

Is there a glass ceiling for people with advanced engineering degrees at Intel?

It is interesting to check the revenue per employee.
I'm not sure how this list was selected. Google was left out for some reason.
I think Nvidia is around $2M / employee.
Intel is around $445,000 per employee.



TradingViewTradingView74,762 followers74,762 followers1yr • 1 year ago
Follow

10 tech companies with the *highest* revenue per employee:

1. Apple (AAPL) - $2.4 million
2. Broadcom (AVGO) - $1.6 million
3. CDW (CDW) - $1.5 million
4. VERISIGN (VRSN) - $1.5 million
5. Ubiquiti Inc. (UI) - $1.22 million
6. Cirrus Logic (CRUS) - $1.1 million
7. Microsoft (MSFT) - $897,000
8. Qualcomm (QCOM) - $866,000
9. Intuit (INTU) - $735,000
10. KLA (KLAC) - $657,000
 
It amazes me to see some of the job titles inside Intel. Is a remote executive coach really necessary? If so, how would you say her job performance has been over the last two years?


Amber Golden
(She/Her) 2nd degree connection
Executive Coach at Intel Corporation
Intel Corporation logo
9 yrs 9 mos
Executive Coach
2021 to Present · 3 yrs 9 mos
Colorado, United States · Remote


Thoughts on a Remote Executive Coach:
  1. 1. Intel has major operations in Arizona, California, Oregon, New Mexico, Texas, Ireland, Israel, and many other locations. Additionally, many managers and executives are frequently traveling. A remote executive coach might be an effective way to utilize coaching and training resources more efficiently.

  2. 2. But is it necessary to have an executive coach to begin with? In my opinion, unless a company is on the brink of bankruptcy, it should allocate some resources to develop its managers and executives. Some may view this as a waste of money and time, but it can also be very useful and beneficial to others. Determining how much to invest and how to make the process efficient and effective are important topics to consider.

  3. 3. @Xebec said, "Great leaders are born; though they can still be honed." The reality, however, is that there are very few naturally born great leaders. Companies like Intel, Nvidia, AMD, and TSMC cannot just sit idle, hoping that great leaders will appear in droves. Rotating executives to different locations, functions, or roles, using internal/external coaching systems, and employing other methods are all valid approaches to consider, and they are not mutually exclusive.

  4. The best executive coaches should ideally be the CEO, CFO, CTO, COO, or other top executives themselves. But if, for any reason, they do not have the time or the personality to take on this role, what can the company as a whole do to fill the gaps?
4. An environment that promotes the financial and professional growth of its employees is more likely to succeed or survive. When I wrote my observations in this thread "Is there a glass ceiling for people with advanced engineering degrees at Intel?", I sensed that a strange situation is occurring at Intel.

Why is it that only two (soon to be only one) persons among Intel's 16 top executives with an engineering-related master's or PhD degree who have worked at Intel for more than five years?

I want to stressed it again that I am specifically talking about engineering-related master's or PhD degrees, not just the PhD. And they have been working for Intel longer than 5 years.

I do not believe that all Intel employees with engineering-related master's or PhD degrees are automatically qualified to become executives or managers.

However, I also do not agree that it should be so rare for people with such educational backgrounds to reach the very top of Intel's management team when they have been in Intel longer than 5 years. Let's not forget that Intel is a technology company, and many open positions (though not currently) have favored or required advanced engineering degrees (master's or PhD).

Are all those Intel employees with advanced engineering degrees and work for Intel longer than 5 years inherently bad executive candidates?
 
When Jensen and the executive staff set a course it gets done in parallel, there is no micromanaging or over managing or excessive meetings to talk about your feelings or to prove to other people how smart you are. It is all about results. He is great at pivoting which is important in the semiconductor business. The challenge with pivoting is that everyone must follow 100% without second guessing. Jensen is humble and sets realistic expectations and when there is a problem there is no finger pointing. Nvidia is the best run chip company, my opinion.
Micro-managing is an individual manager behavior, not a corporate strategy. Some mentally-ill (IMO) managers will always operate that way, and some companies are better than others at weeding them out. I heard about some at Intel when I was there, but I never experienced one. More likely happening at Intel was a manager managing upward more than laterally and downward, and they weren't really leading, they were playing politics. I've experienced that at every company I've worked for, but at Intel I observed it a lot. Of course, it's been a decade since I've worked there. It could be better or worse now. I've never attended a meeting in any company I've worked for where people sat around and talked about their feelings, but I suspect you're just being facetious anyway.

Intel was also all about results, and it looks like it still is, but the one key difference I see between Intel and Nvidia is the depth of the management hierarchy. There are layers and layers of various different flavors of VPs and directors, and Gelsinger has relatively few direct reports. When I was there Intel design groups had a lot of meetings, which weren't especially productive IMO, but I'm not current. Huang, on the other hand, is said to have 60 direct reports. If this is the parallelism you're talking about, then I agree, there is probably more of it in Nvidia than Intel. I'm not sure what I think about how Nvidia operates with such a flat structure, since I've never observed it in action.

One indicator that doesn't look too good for Nvidia... I did a search on LinkedIn for "Nvidia program manager" as a search predicate, and got over 3600 results. These are tracking and planning jobs that appear to have a separate reporting structure from product development. These functions are all about tracking deliverables and schedules, holding meetings, and producing reports. So the biggest waste of time and personnel I've seen in every product company exists in Nvidia. However... modifying the search predicate to be "Intel program manager" returns 30,000 results. Hmmm...
 
It is interesting to check the revenue per employee.
I'm not sure how this list was selected. Google was left out for some reason.
I think Nvidia is around $2M / employee.
Intel is around $445,000 per employee.



TradingViewTradingView74,762 followers74,762 followers1yr • 1 year ago
Follow

10 tech companies with the *highest* revenue per employee:

1. Apple (AAPL) - $2.4 million
2. Broadcom (AVGO) - $1.6 million
3. CDW (CDW) - $1.5 million
4. VERISIGN (VRSN) - $1.5 million
5. Ubiquiti Inc. (UI) - $1.22 million
6. Cirrus Logic (CRUS) - $1.1 million
7. Microsoft (MSFT) - $897,000
8. Qualcomm (QCOM) - $866,000
9. Intuit (INTU) - $735,000
10. KLA (KLAC) - $657,000

If we look deeper, we can compare them by their "net profit per employee" figures. I analyzed this on TSMC and Intel in 2022 using 2021 data, and found that TSMC's productivity, measured by net profit per employee, was twice that of Intel's.

TSMC's net profit was $34.07 billion for 2022 and $26.88 billion for 2023. In contrast, Intel's net profit was $8 billion for 2022 and $1.7 billion for 2023 (all GAAP). Intel's net profit per employee is deteriorating quickly and significantly.

On this "net profit per employee" figure for 2024, TSMC's number will go up again while Intel's number is going to be very worrisome.

"If we measure the employee productivity by net profit, TSMC is significantly stronger than Intel.

2021 TSMC average net profit per employee, based on 65,000 employees and US$21.354 billion net profit for 2021:
US$ 328,523

2021 Intel average net profit per employee, based on total 121,000 employees and US$19.87 billion net profit for 2021:
US$ 164,214"


Source: https://semiwiki.com/forum/index.ph...’t-fix-the-talent-bottleneck.15998/post-52515
 
I've never met a born leader, especially me.
Small note - getting too OT for this thread/forum but a nuance here is I think a "true leader" has to have a certain core desire or personality - that they may either be born with or tempered over time. Then how effectively they lead is yet another combo of their internal experiences/personality and through training.

Many "born" leaders probably has proteges (unofficial or not) that they learned from when young. Then when they appear in the workforce early on and show leadership, "that's a born leader!".

Just my two cents. (Further OT I went into leadership because I was sick of ineffective bosses above me and also to help better represent engineers who needed leaders that could back them and also translate tech into whatever for the rest of the corporate types :). "Full Spectrum Leadership" penned by Lockheed had a lot of good lessons on balancing out energizing the team vs building effective relationships vs deliver results vs personal mastery (lead by example) etc.

Looking back at Intel im not sure they ever had a sustainable leadership model - "only the paranoid survive" doesn't instill internal trust or pass down the best attributes to succeeding generations. For all the success of the 80s and 90s, Intel lacked leadership vision culture even if they (at times) had technical vision.
 
You seem to be asserting that there is a positive correlation between corporate success and the ratio of STEM PhDs in successful company executive ranks. So I'm wondering, have you worked with a significant number of executive PhDs in product engineering companies? If the number is greater than zero, have you reported to any of them, directly or indirectly? Do you have a technical PhD yourself? Are any friends or family members technical PhDs, so that you get an insider's perspective of their thinking? How aware are you of the cultural differences regarding the importance of academic credentials between east Asian companies and US companies?

With small US companies there is often a definite correlation between technical PhD leadership and successful execution, because many startup companies are founded based on the academic research the founders did that led to commercial products. I could probably list off the top of my head well over twenty examples I've run into over the years. In big companies the correlation seems much weaker. For example, in the chip equipment field, Lam Research is a very successful US company, yet the CEO, Tim Archer, holds only a technical BS degree (though his BS is in Applied Physics from CalTech, which is pretty impressive to me). Other than TSMC executives, who are the top-line executives with technical PhDs running multi-national companies who you admire? (Other than Lisa Su.)

By the way, a Juris Doctor degree in the US legal profession is a doctorate, not a masters degree equivalent. Oddly in the US legal profession, masters degrees (called LLMs) generally require a JD as a prerequisite. I'm not sure how the rest of the world works (and I'm not interested).
One key factor of obtaining a degree is to identify individuals with higher IQs. Some tech fields do not require long-term postgraduate training. For example, Bill Gates dropped out of college, but the fact that he was admitted to Harvard demonstrates his IQ. For many intelligent individuals, pursuing a PhD or even a college degree can be seen as a waste of time.
 
One key factor of obtaining a degree is to identify individuals with higher IQs. Some tech fields do not require long-term postgraduate training. For example, Bill Gates dropped out of college, but the fact that he was admitted to Harvard demonstrates his IQ. For many intelligent individuals, pursuing a PhD or even a college degree can be seen as a waste of time.
I agree. PhD programs are really for people who want to learn to do scientific research, or investigate something they think is really cool, like, say, quantum computing. If you get your kicks out of building products or companies, a PhD may not the best use of your time. I will say this though, we strongly encouraged our children to get advanced degrees, because a lot of companies are impressed by academic credentials, and the credentials make life easier later on. As a hiring manager for decades, I know it just does. But you know that already.

I was almost always a mediocre student. Classical university education is breadth first. You take 100 level courses, then 200 levels courses, and so on. I'm a depth-first person, and if I'm fascinated by a topic, or perhaps passionate about it, I don't want to wait two years to dive in, I want to do it immediately. And if I need associated knowledge to understand the foundations of the topic, like say linear algebra or matrix mathematics, I'll go learn it because I have to feed the fascination. Put me in a math class where the instructor may or may not relate the subject to whatever fascinates me, and I'm lucky to just pass. So I get your point. I envy people, like my wife, who are model students who love school and going to classes, and are always at the top of the class.
 
Why is it so difficult for long-time Intel employees with advanced engineering degrees to become senior executives at Intel?
I think it would be great for Ann Kelleher to advance, after what she accomplished, but she probably won't. After all, it's a tough culture, and she is most likely feared and hated as much as liked and respected. She had to take actions that some liked (I imagine), some opposed, and lost, and they hold grudges. Along the way she picked up demerits of all kinds. The weight of those demerits compared to someone like PG who left the organization, and therefore wasn't accumulating demerits, seems most likely to be decisive.

This is a general problem, in a tough culture in the decline part of the corporate life cycle, leaders get wounded and weakened, not strengthened, and they got there by wounding and weakening others. A vicious circle.
 
I think it would be great for Ann Kelleher to advance, after what she accomplished, but she probably won't. After all, it's a tough culture, and she is most likely feared and hated as much as liked and respected. She had to take actions that some liked (I imagine), some opposed, and lost, and they hold grudges. Along the way she picked up demerits of all kinds. The weight of those demerits compared to someone like PG who left the organization, and therefore wasn't accumulating demerits, seems most likely to be decisive.

This is a general problem, in a tough culture in the decline part of the corporate life cycle, leaders get wounded and weakened, not strengthened, and they got there by wounding and weakening others. A vicious circle.
To develop an executive, or any employee in general, a company needs to have the right culture, system, and attitude to make it possible. Sometimes, it's not even related to the job itself or management skills.

I used to work for a senior VP who had a PhD in an engineering related field—let's call him John. One of our $1 billion revenue customers hosted an important annual golf tournament that always required participation from our senior executives. However, John had a problem: he raised horses, rode weekly, played tennis, and did trapshooting often—but he didn't play golf. As a result, the CEO always sent another VP to represent John at the tournament.

John was a doer, a good leader, and well-liked by both staff and customers. His inability to play golf could have become a big problem for the company. However, it didn't. It's because the CEO was willing to make the necessary arrangements to ensure it was a non-issue
 
It amazes me to see some of the job titles inside Intel. Is a remote executive coach really necessary? If so, how would you say her job performance has been over the last two years?


Amber Golden
(She/Her) 2nd degree connection
Executive Coach at Intel Corporation
Intel Corporation logo
9 yrs 9 mos
Executive Coach
2021 to Present · 3 yrs 9 mos
Colorado, United States · Remote
If I showed you a org chart for some of the groups you would swear its from "the office" or "Office space"
1) assistant to the chief of staff for the TA
2) The Bob's are in there consulting away
3) Product program leader, platform program leader, Process program leader, Product line leader.

that said, this isnt the issue.... IMO. Intel changes its plans and roadmap so often that they need this many people to keep all the changes straight and make the powerpoint foils
 
If I showed you a org chart for some of the groups you would swear its from "the office" or "Office space"
1) assistant to the chief of staff for the TA
2) The Bob's are in there consulting away
3) Product program leader, platform program leader, Process program leader, Product line leader.

that said, this isnt the issue.... IMO. Intel changes its plans and roadmap so often that they need this many people to keep all the changes straight and make the powerpoint foils
While I totally agree with this, I’ll just note it’s possible to have bloated and silly structures like this and still make a lot of money. See: any Defense Contractor, big pharma, or companies like Monsanto, Oracle, etc. Intel needs a lot of changes to succeed. A large PMO can be very useful if you’re dealing with complex pieces and need a group to address resource contention at the top, though many PMOs are not very effective.

I really think they should get one more full calendar year to show the fruits of this 4 year plan - If 18A fails to attract a lot of stuff by the end of next year AND they fail to launch compelling products of their own on 18A then they’re definitely cooked long term.
 
While I totally agree with this, I’ll just note it’s possible to have bloated and silly structures like this and still make a lot of money. See: any Defense Contractor, big pharma, or companies like Monsanto, Oracle, etc.
US defense contractors often have cost-plus contracts, and the DoD knows the USG has rigorous reporting requirements and custom designs that make the usual market pricing forces inapplicable. Big drug companies focus on patent-able drugs, so they have government-enforced monopolies for 20 years. I don't think Intel is comparable. I'm not familiar with Oracle (beyond their technology) or Monsanto.
 
US defense contractors often have cost-plus contracts, and the DoD knows the USG has rigorous reporting requirements and custom designs that make the usual market pricing forces inapplicable. Big drug companies focus on patent-able drugs, so they have government-enforced monopolies for 20 years. I don't think Intel is comparable. I'm not familiar with Oracle (beyond their technology) or Monsanto.
Intel had a monopoly-ish setup but through lack of vision and leadership laziness lost it :)

TSMC is effectively cost plus with prepay for advanced fab capacity and no competition.

I agree defense and commercial aren't 100% comparable but I don't think that having a large PMO for a large enterprise also means they can't be successful. It's more nuanced than that but in short the Intel (leadership) culture has been poor for a long time.
 
Intel had a monopoly-ish setup but through lack of vision and leadership laziness lost it :)
This is a tangential issue that has been discussed ad infinitum on this forum.
TSMC is effectively cost plus with prepay for advanced fab capacity and no competition.
I disagree. My understanding is that TSMC works with agreed upon pricing contracts. DoD cost plus contracts essentially determine a company's gross margin ahead of time, and then the contractor submits expenses which are reimbursed.
I agree defense and commercial aren't 100% comparable but I don't think that having a large PMO for a large enterprise also means they can't be successful. It's more nuanced than that but in short the Intel (leadership) culture has been poor for a long time.
For those who aren't aware, program management groups arise when projects get so complex you need someone (or often multiple people) aggregating the program progress measurement information and status because no one manager, except a senior executive who is viewed as not being hands-on, has the global project view. It also assumes the development teams work in "silos" that don't interact effectively, so the program managers are also the keepers of the overall program progress information database. Of course with anything that involves a lot of people and expense in commercial and government projects, program management has become a major area of study, and that leads to formal methodologies, like Agile (the most popular). And once a subject begets formal methodologies, you have people who become experts in implementing the methodologies, and in my experience more often than not they aren't engineering or product development experts, they're mostly experts in the methodology.

Agile includes specific meeting structures, the most well-known called SCRUMs, which supposedly need people specially trained to run, called SCRUM Masters. I remember when these types of meetings became fashionable and they were often called "stand-up meetings", because they were supposed to be so short you didn't need to sit during them. That was a long time ago.

There are thousands of articles about Agile on the internet, and if you suffer from insomnia many of them can help you.

And, as you might imagine with thousands of highly compensated people performing a structured methodology, there are expensive software tools available for assisting the process. I've had success with Atlassian products, but there are others. (Note: articles about Agile tend to be focused on software, because as you might imagine there are vastly more software projects than chip projects in the world, but the concepts apply equally to software and hardware, and systems for that matter.)

So what's not to like? Why am I so cranky about it?

Agile does include some good objectives and concepts, like project-level formal databases and inter-generational learning. It's the implementation that I find annoying. I don't know what Nvidia does specifically, but many companies implement a separate management reporting hierarchy for program managers separate from the engineering and test organizations, supposedly to maintain the independence and integrity of the status information. (Like the Offices of Inspector General do for rule following in in US government agencies.) These program management reporting structures IMO actually work against inter-group information sharing and cooperation, and foster groups being silos rather than breaking down barriers. Also, program management groups become significant expense centers, and engineering managers become too inwardly focused, because the big picture is someone else's responsibility. One advantage of working for startups is that generally everybody is hands-on and has the big picture, so this bureaucracy isn't needed.
 
I disagree. My understanding is that TSMC works with agreed upon pricing contracts. DoD cost plus contracts essentially determine a company's gross margin ahead of time, and then the contractor submits expenses which are reimbursed.
Wafer pre-pay effectively locks in profits for the foundry. Now, if TSMC screws up on a node for a long time they’re not going to be getting unlimited extra funds from customers like DC’s do, but TSMC is in a similarly commanding position of leverage that they can demand a pre-locked in profit, and even apparently raise it unilaterally if their costs go up (recent TSMC price raises). That’s why I said “effectively cost plus”.

Also, even Defense Contractors have some cost outside of cost plus (unbillable hours — some overhead functions, training, etc.); DoD cost-plus isn’t 100% inclusive.

I’m pretty sure we won’t agree here but I just wanted to clarify my experience/opinion.

..

Way off topic - I strongly dislike Agile - I think it’s designed around micromanaging extroverts rather than actually getting things done in an efficient way :). (Sorry extroverts). I don’t think Agile is ever a good match for infrastructure or hardware projects. The most effective large PMO I’ve been part of (a major restructuring for LM Space Systems company) was definitely not Agile-based, but did focus on coordination, communications, and waterfall methods.

Good write up on this topic btw.
 
Back
Top