Twisted Mess, Buy Chinese, But Don't Sell to Chinese

[Arthur Hanson]

The current trade policy is hurting us and helping the Chinese. We won't sell to the Chinese our main export, technology, but have no limits on what we buy from them. This twisted logic will do us no good and a better strategy has to come up with. The US has to come up with a better strategy, perhaps large fines and penalties for stolen technologies? I feel an automation drive, like the space race, might be the best answer. Thoughts and comments sought on this issue.

 

[Xebec]

It's not finding a solution that's the problem. It's having a functional US government that actually works together to find long term solutions ... Is step 1 of what we need right now.

We could be very direct - "stop stealing and stop genociding or else", or we could have backdoor conversations to the same effect. But we won't because the parties won't set aside political gains for the benefit of humanity.

 

[nickw]

The responsibility for the current US trade policy belongs with the current administration. No excuses allowed.

 

[nickw]

The current trade policy is hurting us and helping the Chinese. We won't sell to the Chinese our main export, technology, but have no limits on what we buy from them. This twisted logic will do us no good and a better strategy has to come up with. The US has to come up with a better strategy, perhaps large fines and penalties for stolen technologies? I feel an automation drive, like the space race, might be the best answer. Thoughts and comments sought on this issue.

Biden's trade policy incentivizes China to develop their own semi tools and penalizes US semi billions of dollars of lost revenue. A rational trade policy does just the opposite. It incentivizes US semi. The Trump approach to China trade was tariffs on China semi. Notice who is penalized by this appoach.

 

[nickw]

The Biden trade policy is an act of war. A rational trade policy is an act of business.

 

[danieleran]

The Biden trade policy is an act of war. A rational trade policy is an act of business.

Run your theory past the very rational Germans to see how doing business with fascists worked out for them.

 

[nghanayem]

Biden's trade policy incentivizes China to develop their own semi tools and penalizes US semi billions of dollars of lost revenue. A rational trade policy does just the opposite. It incentivizes US semi. The Trump approach to China trade was tariffs on China semi. Notice who is penalized by this appoach.

Developing their own semi tools would literally take decades. Want to know what would help them catch up faster? Giving them examples to work with and reverse engineer. Although maybe not since China still has yet to develop more than a handful of prototype 193 litho tools, and these tools are not even worth using over even a Cannon tool. But no complaints from me if we also stopped doing business with a brutal dictatorship that uses slave labor, has one of the most extensive police states ever imagined, and has corrupted/destroyed the history of one of the Earth's greatest civilizations.

 

[ballsystemlord]

This is a bit more complicated than just an administration of the US government.

1: The US people are very interested in buying from overseas.
They'll do this even if it means that the US, and subsequently they, have less and less money every year, because more and more US money accumulates in foreign countries over time with this system.

2: The US people are willing to sacrifice quality in favor of quantity.
How many times do people say, "Don't buy junk from China!"? But they do it anyway. I've literally been in a forum where someone called me out for it only for another poster to point out that the guy literally had just done the same thing!

3: The US people are willing to not work in certain fields, such as manufacturing, in favor of allowing other countries and US immigrants, to do the work.
Ever heard of migrant workers? Even noticed they all look like they're from Mexico or Latin America? Even noticed it is the same with lawn mowing companies? Does everyone only want a desk job?
Ever wondered why people are willing to sell their businesses overseas? Ever wondered why the people who work under them accept this? Ever wonder why those workers don't just quit and start their own company in the US that does the same thing?

4: The US people are willing to elect leaders who prioritize other countries (and jobs in other countries), over their own.
Now this one I'm totally at a loss to. How does that benefit US voters? At all? Ever? Is it really so hard to do a little digging to find out what those who run for office really stand for? I do it every election. I'm told by many politicians that they've never in their lives been so thoroughly questioned on the issues.

5: The US people no longer care if someone's running concentration camps.
We have eye witnesses and satellite photos of these camps. We went after Hilter for this, so why not North Korea, China, etc.? Or was WWII just another political stunt?

6: US inventors seem happy to allow their inventions to be "stolen" by foreign entities.
How ever does this work?! I mean, you can "air gap" your PCs. Physical inventions require physical access to understand them if not steal them outright. So how does this even happen? I'm of the opinion that the word "steal" is a coy way of saying that you gave a foreign power your invention.

7: The US people always cry "I didn't do it" when they see something wrong, but they have the power to vote, to buy, and to speak.
What exactly is this innocent act? I know someone who voted based on the politicians ability to sing. Yes sing. Can you believe it?!
Everyday we can buy "Made in America" but there's not enough demand for those over Chinese goods, so stores stock the Chinese ones.
Everyday we can speak about how to improve things. We have a 1st amendment for a reason. So, why not encourage people to go into manufacturing, buy from Americans, and talk about what the available candidates for office stand for?

Mind, this is all just off-the-top-of-my-head. There's probably plenty more that can be said.
And I've only talked about the effect that the average US citizen could make. Not about politicians, big business owners, investors, hedge fund whatever-they-are's, etc..

 

[Fred Chen]

Odd logic here is that China is already known to be behind by many steps even with prior US-originated support so the threat is essentially nonexistent.

 

[ballsystemlord]

Odd logic here is that China is already known to be behind by many steps even with prior US-originated support so the threat is essentially nonexistent.

Does SMIC have 7nm and if so, what does it mean - Semiwiki

Recently TechInsights analyzed a Bitcoin Miner chip fabbed at SMIC and declared SMIC has a 7nm process. There has been some debate as to whether the SMIC process is really 7nm and what it means if it is 7nm. I wanted to discuss the case for and against the process being 7nm, and what I…

semiwiki.com

According to this they have a quasi-7nm node currently. So they are behind, but not that amazing far behind.

 

[Barnsley]

This is a bit more complicated than just an administration of the US government.

1: The US people are very interested in buying from overseas.
They'll do this even if it means that the US, and subsequently they, have less and less money every year, because more and more US money accumulates in foreign countries over time with this system.

2: The US people are willing to sacrifice quality in favor of quantity.
How many times do people say, "Don't buy junk from China!"? But they do it anyway. I've literally been in a forum where someone called me out for it only for another poster to point out that the guy literally had just done the same thing!

3: The US people are willing to not work in certain fields, such as manufacturing, in favor of allowing other countries and US immigrants, to do the work.
Ever heard of migrant workers? Even noticed they all look like they're from Mexico or Latin America? Even noticed it is the same with lawn mowing companies? Does everyone only want a desk job?
Ever wondered why people are willing to sell their businesses overseas? Ever wondered why the people who work under them accept this? Ever wonder why those workers don't just quit and start their own company in the US that does the same thing?

4: The US people are willing to elect leaders who prioritize other countries (and jobs in other countries), over their own.
Now this one I'm totally at a loss to. How does that benefit US voters? At all? Ever? Is it really so hard to do a little digging to find out what those who run for office really stand for? I do it every election. I'm told by many politicians that they've never in their lives been so thoroughly questioned on the issues.

5: The US people no longer care if someone's running concentration camps.
We have eye witnesses and satellite photos of these camps. We went after Hilter for this, so why not North Korea, China, etc.? Or was WWII just another political stunt?

6: US inventors seem happy to allow their inventions to be "stolen" by foreign entities.
How ever does this work?! I mean, you can "air gap" your PCs. Physical inventions require physical access to understand them if not steal them outright. So how does this even happen? I'm of the opinion that the word "steal" is a coy way of saying that you gave a foreign power your invention.

7: The US people always cry "I didn't do it" when they see something wrong, but they have the power to vote, to buy, and to speak.
What exactly is this innocent act? I know someone who voted based on the politicians ability to sing. Yes sing. Can you believe it?!
Everyday we can buy "Made in America" but there's not enough demand for those over Chinese goods, so stores stock the Chinese ones.
Everyday we can speak about how to improve things. We have a 1st amendment for a reason. So, why not encourage people to go into manufacturing, buy from Americans, and talk about what the available candidates for office stand for?

Mind, this is all just off-the-top-of-my-head. There's probably plenty more that can be said.
And I've only talked about the effect that the average US citizen could make. Not about politicians, big business owners, investors, hedge fund whatever-they-are's, etc..

Point 3

This is applicable to all nations.

At some point folk dont want to do the "dirty work" , so either you bring folk in that do or move the work to where the workers are.

 

[andy_beers]

Run your theory past the very rational Germans to see how doing business with fascists worked out for them.

IBM benefitted greatly from doing business with the Nazi's developing technology to perform census tracking of individuals. IBM still exists today.....

 

[andy_beers]

Point 3

This is applicable to all nations.

At some point folk dont want to do the "dirty work" , so either you bring folk in that do or move the work to where the workers are.

Bringing in folks to 'do the dirty work' keeps a large portion of US poor even poorer due to this inflation and gov't dependent and unhappy and unrest/crime increases. Social policy isn't to write off a percentage of the US population to drugs and poverty. War hawks are playing with tactical nuclear war while the media covers up the games and truth... War is not the answer either. When are we going to wake up and stop shooting ourselves in the head? Nov. 8th?

1. Get the M2 money supply under control (Fed); Never run deficits (Congress)
2. Term limits on Congress (2 terms)(Constitutional amendment, they won't do it themselves)
3. Stop Congress from insider trading and influence peddling (Congress won't do it / Constitutional amendment)
4. Stop funding all of the 'biological weapons research' being farmed out to foreign countries (Congress/Pentagon)
5. Focus on developing a much better battery technology (DARPA)
6. Focus on Rare earth metals recycling (DARPA)
7. Focus on STEM education for all (Teachers Unions/Congress/Executive Branch) and for those others Focus on Trades educations (robotics, machinists, welders, etc..)
8. Focus on Viaducts to bring water from the North to the South when it floods in the north bring the water to the southern farmers (Army Corps of Engineers).
9. Be Americans not politicians (when is the vast middle gonna stand up and say 'enough'?).

 

[ballsystemlord]

2. Term limits on Congress (2 terms)(Constitutional amendment, they won't do it themselves)

According to my federal rep, and I did speak with him personally, since the election of Trump, 70% of these people in congress are new people. So, if your plan would work, then we should be seeing some positive result. But as he pointed out, Pelosi will block (from getting a vote), anything she does not like and she does not like anything the Republicans have to offer. Again, according to him.
Likewise, he continued, we have a rule where we (republicans) give up our chairs on the committees (I forgot to write down the time intervals), but the Democrats do not do this.
Our previous federal rep, who was not reelected (before the districts were redrawn from where we got our current career politician/rep), pointed out that what happens in congress and what is reported in the press are two different things. Challenged on why he was standing against an independent investigation of Trump during his town-hall meeting, he responded that to appoint a independent investigator, which eventually happened, would signal that he was not competently fulfilling his duties in office. He said that Trump had been investigated thoroughly multiple times.

But why stop at the federal level? How about the local level?
As pointed out by one of our current sitting school board members, we have a 36% grade level literacy in my county. This number, though lower than normal, is representative of how we score normally. "Teachers," I have been told, "Treat this county as a practice job. All of their mistakes are made here. The good teachers then leave for other, more prestigious areas, like private schools or other counties."



So if 70%, a high majority, doesn't make a different, how would term limits better the situation?
If a bad politician would leave after 2 terms, a good one would have to do the same, so you don't solve anything, you just keep shuffling and then loosing even when you win because you have to kick the good politicians out.

Now you might ask what I'm getting at. I'm pointing out that it's not a law that "will save us." You can't regulate bad decision making, nor evil. It's just not possible. Even machines, which don't suffer from the human error factor, are programed by us; who give them erroneous programming as it is our nature to err.

PS: And an error is easier to correct that someone's intention desire to cause harm to the (US) people.

 

[ballsystemlord]

9. Be Americans not politicians (when is the vast middle gonna stand up and say 'enough'?).

I'm not sure they know what they want. I mean, if the US people did, don't you think they'd demand it from politicians? Last time it was peace, drugs, and "love", at any cost. Or so I've read of the 70s.

 

[Jert]

@ballsystemlord , @andy_beers - did you notice this is a "SemiWiki" forum?

 

[ballsystemlord]

@ballsystemlord did you notice this is a "SemiWiki" forum?

The OP's title and post are about trade deals and the space race. Not about semiconductors.

As for me, I've quoted information from 1st party sources and I've made some general statements based on my observations (like migrant workers), which I think can be easily verified. I've also asked questions. I have avoided saying anything on my own. If you know a better way to communicate what I have learned or do research on the topic, feel free to share.

I'm actually surprised there isn't an offtopic section for the semiwiki forums. Things like this seem to come up often.

PS: The conversation has been quite civil so far. I think we can be proud of that. So many discussions like these quickly go into a flame throwing contest. And as the OP of some such discussions (elsewhere), I've been unable to put the fires out.