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TSMC needs to partner with India

India’s high-stakes bid to join the global semiconductor race

The factories outside Chennai, in India’s southern state of Tamil Nadu, are home to an array of global corporate names that lend credibility to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” campaign, which aims to turn Asia’s third-largest economy into a workshop to the world. The state’s industrial parks host international investors such as Renault-Nissan and Hyundai, which have large car factories; Dell makes computers there and Samsung produces TVs, washing machines and fridges.

There are enough suppliers to Apple (including Taiwan’s Foxconn and Pegatron, and the Finnish contract manufacturer Salcomp) that people in Tamil Nadu’s business community commonly refer to the American tech group, which does not discuss its suppliers, as “the fruit company”. Now India wants to take a step up the manufacturing value chain, with a high-stakes bid to begin making semiconductors.

The Modi government has put $10bn of incentives on the table to tempt manufacturers to set up new “fabs” (semiconductor fabrication plants) and encourage investment in related sectors such as display glass. One plant is being planned in Tamil Nadu. India’s ambition to enter the chipmaking business comes at a time of growing trade and geopolitical tension as western economies have pushed to decouple their supply chains from China, which has invested heavily to become a leader in the semiconductor industry.

The Covid-19 pandemic and Beijing’s draconian lockdowns have disrupted global chip supply and sent companies and governments on a hunt for alternative sources of production. India, which has cracked down on Chinese social media apps and phone producers against the backdrop of a long-running geopolitical dispute, is offering itself as a democratic alternative tech hub to China.....

India’s high-stakes bid to join the global semiconductor race

Chipmaking could be fantastically lucrative but precision engineering has not been a traditional national strength
www.ft.com www.ft.com
 
The US put up $12B for TSMC to break ground in Arizona, plus the US offers Taiwan protection. What has India offered?
Japan put up $3B I believe, and Abe (RIP) was a huge supporter of Taiwan and they will probably help in defending Taiwan. India won't.
Why not expand further in the US? It doesn't have to be in Arizona. We have wetter states, although it rained in Arizona yesterday, so our water issues are now solved

Curious, why would somebody bring up opening up a fab in California? I wouldn't open up a can of beer there.
 
Manufacturing.... sure. You were talking about a fab.

The only fab I heard about in India was 28nm (bulk silicon) targeting 2029, that will be competing with a probably glut of finfet wafers (16nm and below) with their lower leakage and power, higher gm, and those awesome routable CA/CB layers that frees up metal 1. You could make the argument for an interposer process, but a 2u process can be used for that. I suppose they will make the 28nm foundry for their own use and tax the hell out of imports.
 
cliff said:
Manufacturing.... sure. You were talking about a fab.

The only fab I heard about in India was 28nm (bulk silicon) targeting 2029, that will be competing with a probably glut of finfet wafers (16nm and below) with their lower leakage and power, higher gm, and those awesome routable CA/CB layers that frees up metal 1. You could make the argument for an interposer process, but a 2u process can be used for that. I suppose they will make the 28nm foundry for their own use and tax the hell out of imports.
Click to expand...

They should start with automotive ICs and move their way up.

With TSMC’s help they can do whatever needs doing.
 
Daniel Nenni said:
India has the biggest growth market for semiconductors outside of China. That is the point. India also has a huge semiconductor design community and it is growing. Most of which is from US companies. Here is who reads SemiWiki around the world:
Click to expand...

The fastest growing semi market outside of China is not India, nowhere close. We need good paid for market statistics to have a good idea.

I wished I could've posted mine, but my Digitimes subscription terms preclude it.
 
tonyget said:
Market does not equals production，the US is the biggest market for most consumer products yet the production is done overseas
Click to expand...
For cell phones India and the PRC are the fastest growth market. The US is totally saturated at this point.
 
George Storm said:
Requirements include tractable politics, efficient and ethical bureaucracy, suitable local culture*, and a highly-disciplined and suitably-educated workforce. Plus, in most locations you have extreme air-conditioning requirements.
Then there are the issues with water and electricity: the fab would effectively need its own reservoir and power station (not just chort-term emergency back-up) to stay running - another area for the foundry-managers to learn.
I'm sure I experienced other issues, but time is a great healer.
*For example, there needs to be a measure of assent that means more than "I heard your words"

Just to point to one personal observation: it's hard enough getting less-critical mid-tech to work over there. A previous employer entered a co-operative venture with the objective of producing precision components: not particularly high tech, but as customer requirments progressed they needed continuous environmental control through a multi-day sequence of processes. Four years ago this employer took sole ownership of this company, whose activities have become limited to PCB and ceramic hybrid manufature and assembly
Click to expand...
It's not exactly like the PRC doesn't have any rolling blackouts either.
 
A) Ohio (like what Intel is doing)
B) India.

Ohio: Fewer natural disasters, nuclear power plant nearby (more important than cheap labor), centrally located in the US (easier to protect against missiles), access to the US $$$ printing press.

India: Lower labor rate for things that aren't automated until those laborers get a higher salary from elsewhere (brain drain). What else? Sorry for the negativity, but I just don't see it. Automation is working against India.
 

Chip consortium ISMC to set up $3 billion plant in India's Karnataka​


BENGALURU, May 1 (Reuters) - International semiconductor consortium ISMC will invest $3 billion in India's southern Karnataka state to set up a chip-making plant, the state government said on Sunday. ISMC is a joint venture between Abu Dhabi-based Next Orbit Ventures and Israel's Tower Semiconductor. U.S. chip giant Intel Corp (INTC.O) has announced plans to acquire Tower. India’s first semiconductor fabrication unit is expected to generate more than 1,500 direct jobs and 10,000 indirect jobs, the state's investment promotion division said in a tweet.

www.reuters.com

Chip consortium ISMC to set up $3 billion plant in India's Karnataka

International semiconductor consortium ISMC will invest $3 billion in India's southern Karnataka state to set up a chip-making plant, the state government said on Sunday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
65nm. How many metal layers do you predict? Are they just going to go up to M5 as thin routing layer just like GF/ON/SKY? Compare this to finfets and a metal stack with routable CA, CB, 8 thin metal routing layers, and several 2x/4x layers, and 4 foundries cranking out these wavers in the next few years. Is this process worth making? Is India now going shift over to focus on analog?

If they can make the metal stack compete with 28nm, the plan may work. If not, why bother? This forum is called "ask the experts". I'm asking.
 
Semiconductor politics reminds me of a dog and pony show. Lots of talk, something happens, folks get excited, and yet one has the lingering feeling that there’s more than meets the eye.

How much is posturing and how much is substance?
 
Daniel Nenni said:

Chip consortium ISMC to set up $3 billion plant in India's Karnataka​


BENGALURU, May 1 (Reuters) - International semiconductor consortium ISMC will invest $3 billion in India's southern Karnataka state to set up a chip-making plant, the state government said on Sunday. ISMC is a joint venture between Abu Dhabi-based Next Orbit Ventures and Israel's Tower Semiconductor. U.S. chip giant Intel Corp (INTC.O) has announced plans to acquire Tower. India’s first semiconductor fabrication unit is expected to generate more than 1,500 direct jobs and 10,000 indirect jobs, the state's investment promotion division said in a tweet.

www.reuters.com

Chip consortium ISMC to set up $3 billion plant in India's Karnataka

International semiconductor consortium ISMC will invest $3 billion in India's southern Karnataka state to set up a chip-making plant, the state government said on Sunday.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
Click to expand...
Hi Dan,

I think you have enough info on this thread to write a proper white paper in favor of a fab in India. Especially for TSMC !

Best !
 
Anshuman said:
Hi Dan,

I think you have enough info on this thread to write a proper white paper in favor of a fab in India. Especially for TSMC !

Best !
Click to expand...

I noticed, all semi talk in India is only about Southern states, where state governments ran industrialisation programs for decades.

Noida has few final assembly plants attracted with enormous subsidies, but near no actual manufacturing.

The lack/presence of bureaucracy is the literal do or die matter here.

M. Y. Zuo said:
Semiconductor politics reminds me of a dog and pony show. Lots of talk, something happens, folks get excited, and yet one has the lingering feeling that there’s more than meets the eye.

How much is posturing and how much is substance?
Click to expand...

I bet a lot. There were many, many talks of fab projects in India over the last 20 years.

My own experience opening manufacturing sites in India. It goes along these archetypal lines:

1. Big name conglomerate invites a Chinese co for a joint project: first impression — all great, state receptions, etc, 1 year down the line — they are still "considering." You say "we are ready to ship equipment tomorrow," they "come for one more memorandum of understanding signing"
2. A "real deal" man on the level of Avani/Ambani etc comes, and he so much real deal that he just says put the number on the cheque, and then walks away, expecting the Chinese/Taiwanese co to be able to do everything on their own in a completely new country to them. These guys have very poor idea how any business more complex than an oil refinery, iron mill, powerplant, or cement plant works.
3. You are invited by somebody as a part of state run investment program. The government, or a special economic zone authority promise tons of perks, and less regulatory burden. A month after they drop you/your client at the mercy of the said bureaucratic system. Get 10 NOCs to apply for the said simplified regulatory regime, and then you find their bonded warehouse facility being even slower than regular customs.
 
Paul2 said:
I bet a lot. There were many, many talks of fab projects in India over the last 20 years.
Click to expand...

True, there were also lots of talks about TSMC building fabs outside of Taiwan and now it is happening. Times change and so do geopolitical goals.
 
Paul2 said:
I noticed, all semi talk in India is only about Southern states, where state governments ran industrialisation programs for decades.

Noida has few final assembly plants attracted with enormous subsidies, but near no actual manufacturing.

The lack/presence of bureaucracy is the literal do or die matter here.



I bet a lot. There were many, many talks of fab projects in India over the last 20 years.

My own experience opening manufacturing sites in India. It goes along these archetypal lines:

1. Big name conglomerate invites a Chinese co for a joint project: first impression — all great, state receptions, etc, 1 year down the line — they are still "considering." You say "we are ready to ship equipment tomorrow," they "come for one more memorandum of understanding signing"
2. A "real deal" man on the level of Avani/Ambani etc comes, and he so much real deal that he just says put the number on the cheque, and then walks away, expecting the Chinese/Taiwanese co to be able to do everything on their own in a completely new country to them. These guys have very poor idea how any business more complex than an oil refinery, iron mill, powerplant, or cement plant works.
3. You are invited by somebody as a part of state run investment program. The government, or a special economic zone authority promise tons of perks, and less regulatory burden. A month after they drop you/your client at the mercy of the said bureaucratic system. Get 10 NOCs to apply for the said simplified regulatory regime, and then you find their bonded warehouse facility being even slower than regular customs.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Paul2 said:
I noticed, all semi talk in India is only about Southern states, where state governments ran industrialisation programs for decades.

Noida has few final assembly plants attracted with enormous subsidies, but near no actual manufacturing.

The lack/presence of bureaucracy is the literal do or die matter here.



I bet a lot. There were many, many talks of fab projects in India over the last 20 years.

My own experience opening manufacturing sites in India. It goes along these archetypal lines:

1. Big name conglomerate invites a Chinese co for a joint project: first impression — all great, state receptions, etc, 1 year down the line — they are still "considering." You say "we are ready to ship equipment tomorrow," they "come for one more memorandum of understanding signing"
2. A "real deal" man on the level of Avani/Ambani etc comes, and he so much real deal that he just says put the number on the cheque, and then walks away, expecting the Chinese/Taiwanese co to be able to do everything on their own in a completely new country to them. These guys have very poor idea how any business more complex than an oil refinery, iron mill, powerplant, or cement plant works.
3. You are invited by somebody as a part of state run investment program. The government, or a special economic zone authority promise tons of perks, and less regulatory burden. A month after they drop you/your client at the mercy of the said bureaucratic system. Get 10 NOCs to apply for the said simplified regulatory regime, and then you find their bonded warehouse facility being even slower than regular customs.
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

It’s interesting that such events would occur repeatedly. Surely by the third or fourth time folks would wisen up and demand to see a sufficiently large letter of credit, an on-the-record government guarantee, etc.?
 
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