Array
(
    [content] => 
    [params] => Array
        (
            [0] => /forum/index.php?threads/tsmc-may-set-up-wafer-fabs-in-germany-and-japan.14427/
        )

    [addOns] => Array
        (
            [DL6/MLTP] => 13
            [Hampel/TimeZoneDebug] => 1000070
            [SV/ChangePostDate] => 2010200
            [SemiWiki/Newsletter] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/WPMenu] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/XPressExtend] => 1000010
            [ThemeHouse/XLink] => 1000970
            [ThemeHouse/XPress] => 1010570
            [XF] => 2020770
            [XFI] => 1050170
        )

    [wordpress] => /var/www/html
)

TSMC may set up wafer fabs in Germany and Japan

prime007

Active member
An interesting piece of news or rumor... hopefully TSMC will address this tomorrow during their earnings call
 

VCT

Member
Chance for TSMC to set up wafer fabs in Germany and Japan is low.
The rumor for TSMC to have 6 fabs in Arizona is true. A TSMC vendor confirmed that.

 

Daniel Nenni

Admin
Staff member
Chance for TSMC to set up wafer fabs in Germany and Japan is low.
The rumor for TSMC to have 6 fabs in Arizona is true. A TSMC vendor confirmed that.

I agree completely. I'm sure TSMC is talking to everyone but the cost of the fab is key. I see no issue with TSMC recruiting talent where ever they go but these countries are going to have to write some very big checks. The funny thing is that Globalfoundries had this same business plan, fabs around the world, but I guess they were a bit early.
 

VCT

Member
Language and culture difference will hurt TSMC's communication and management effeciency.
Extremly difficult for Taiwanese to daily communicate with Japanese and German coworkers in English.
 
So the Germany (Dresden) discussion is about 16nm/12nm according to the report. It's not leading edge. Doesn't GF already have that in Dresden ? Why fork out a huge check to TSMC for that ? Glad we UK taxpayers will not be invited to contribute.
 

james juang

New member
TSMC cannot do without EU (ASML) and Japan’s (PR, Chemical, etc.) supports. Both governments have openly invited TSMC. From TSMC's point of view, it is reasonable to meet their “minimum requirements” (mature nodes) as the first step and go from there.
 

hskuo

Active member
My opinion, tsmc's strategy seems more agile and flexible than before, in the combination of Mark Liu and CC Wei. Did tsmc have technology alliance with IDM customers' before, It was, in year ~2000. If government pay the subsides and IDM customers would like to have joint venture, it will be quite possible to see more fabs outside Asia hub.
 

james juang

New member
“Creating solutions waiting for the problems” is a good Morris’ joke. TSMC has envisioned many problems but never auto ICs such as MCUs. US, EU, and Japan governments are all saying it is your problem now. TSMC has no choice but to do something about the mature nodes.

Rumors said that TSMC has not received permission from the US about its Nanjia expansion. If true, we might see a major expansion of the mature nodes in Japan and the EU instead. BTW, Japan has picked up about 50% of the cost of the 3D packaging center in Japan. If Japan is willing to pay that kind of money for the mature nodes, as a long-term TSM shareholder, I would say “go for it”.
 

prime007

Active member
Chance for TSMC to set up wafer fabs in Germany and Japan is low.
The rumor for TSMC to have 6 fabs in Arizona is true. A TSMC vendor confirmed that.

I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of a TSMC Japan fab. Japan and Taiwan appear to be closer now than ever....but Mark Liu did not specifically address Japan or Europe during his "Chairman's Key Message: TSMC Global Manufacturing Footprint" during the earnings call.

UPDATE: A analyst asked specifically about Japan. C.C. mentioned that they are currently doing due diligence on the possibility of a Japanese wafer fab.
 
Last edited:

hist78

Active member
I agree completely. I'm sure TSMC is talking to everyone but the cost of the fab is key. I see no issue with TSMC recruiting talent where ever they go but these countries are going to have to write some very big checks. The funny thing is that Globalfoundries had this same business plan, fabs around the world, but I guess they were a bit early.
Japanese government is writing a big check to TSMC to start a fab with Sony. They followed the same playbook of US administration. I see a high probability that EU will do the same thing.
 

hkwint

Member
Philippines or Singapore would make more sense.
Not at all; it would make zero sense:

TSMC wants to expand to growth markets; be less dependent on the core market (smartphones).
Automotive is a growth market for TSMC.
The clients for automotive are mainly in Japan, Germany and China; with US possibly already served by AZ.

You want to manufacture where your clients are.
Both Philippines & Singapore are not the location of clients.

16nm / 16nm++ or so (called 12nm in TSMC PR-nonsense as a desparate reply to GloFo 12FDX) makes sense for automotive.

Also, Dresden makes sense: Automotive suppliers GloFo, Infineon and Bosch are already in Dresden.
 

Portland

Active member
You look at the shaldag 5 deal between the Philippines and Taiwan as well as the cruise missile and armour vehicle deals. There's a relationship that doesn't exist with Germany. They're two difference cultures that do things differently.

In a videogame a Taiwanese company in Germany can make money but the real world you depend on people. The cultures are so different could the Taiwanese motivate the Germans to give their best part of the time. Taiwan's strength is it's people are willing to work in manufacturing. Germany is a special case, it's been occupied since world war 2. They rely on their eastern neighbors for labor as well as the us occupation to make corporations profitable.
 

hkwint

Member
You look at the shaldag 5 deal between the Philippines and Taiwan as well as the cruise missile and armour vehicle deals. There's a relationship that doesn't exist with Germany. They're two difference cultures that do things differently.

In a videogame a Taiwanese company in Germany can make money but the real world you depend on people. The cultures are so different could the Taiwanese motivate the Germans to give their best part of the time. Taiwan's strength is it's people are willing to work in manufacturing. Germany is a special case, it's been occupied since world war 2. They rely on their eastern neighbors for labor as well as the us occupation to make corporations profitable.
This makes no sense at all.

Germany's strength is people are willing to work in manufacturing, just like Taiwan. The whole Western world relies on cheap immigrant-labor, that's not special at all.

Second, it's the client who wants to decide on the location of the factory. Just because Taiwan would have cozy relations with Kiribati wouldn't mean they should set up shop over there.

So, both Japan and Germany mentioned is no coincidence: The thing those two countries have in common is car industry, and their requirement to be less dependent on Asia. The clients couldn't care less about cruise missile contracts, they want to have chips even if all boats are anchored and planes grounded.
 
You look at the shaldag 5 deal between the Philippines and Taiwan as well as the cruise missile and armour vehicle deals. There's a relationship that doesn't exist with Germany. They're two difference cultures that do things differently.

In a videogame a Taiwanese company in Germany can make money but the real world you depend on people. The cultures are so different could the Taiwanese motivate the Germans to give their best part of the time. Taiwan's strength is it's people are willing to work in manufacturing. Germany is a special case, it's been occupied since world war 2. They rely on their eastern neighbors for labor as well as the us occupation to make corporations profitable.
I've spent a lot of time working in Germany and this is a picture I simply don't recognise. Germany is not "occupied". The Germans work hard and produce the best quality stuff in the world (cars, kitchen appliances, etc.) that people all over the world buy. And have done for decades.

Germans also work in manufacturing.

There's no guarantee this will continue - for example for cars. I also see similar attributes in Korea for example (think big and go all-in, don't tinker at things, produce quality). But their success is deserved and the result of hard work and good leadership and management. Not foreign help.

Yes, Europe as a whole has very restrictive laws on working hours and excessive holidays by international standards. That does not help.

I did once (early 90s) try to go into the local TI office in Germany (visiting from the UK) one Saturday to catch up on some critical customer work. Quite impossible due to some "insurance" reasons - I'd failed to get the necessary exemption in advance. So the customer suffered a needless delay. Would have been no issue in the UK. I suspect some of this inflexibility remains. Not good in the semi industry.
 

Portland

Active member
This makes no sense at all.

Germany's strength is people are willing to work in manufacturing, just like Taiwan. The whole Western world relies on cheap immigrant-labor, that's not special at all.

Second, it's the client who wants to decide on the location of the factory. Just because Taiwan would have cozy relations with Kiribati wouldn't mean they should set up shop over there.

So, both Japan and Germany mentioned is no coincidence: The thing those two countries have in common is car industry, and their requirement to be less dependent on Asia. The clients couldn't care less about cruise missile contracts, they want to have chips even if all boats are anchored and planes grounded.
I've spent a lot of time working in Germany and this is a picture I simply don't recognise. Germany is not "occupied". The Germans work hard and produce the best quality stuff in the world (cars, kitchen appliances, etc.) that people all over the world buy. And have done for decades.

Germans also work in manufacturing.

There's no guarantee this will continue - for example for cars. I also see similar attributes in Korea for example (think big and go all-in, don't tinker at things, produce quality). But their success is deserved and the result of hard work and good leadership and management. Not foreign help.

Yes, Europe as a whole has very restrictive laws on working hours and excessive holidays by international standards. That does not help.

I did once (early 90s) try to go into the local TI office in Germany (visiting from the UK) one Saturday to catch up on some critical customer work. Quite impossible due to some "insurance" reasons - I'd failed to get the necessary exemption in advance. So the customer suffered a needless delay. Would hav
Germany is dependent on tsmc and Taiwan like everyone else.

First island chain is a big deal really that's what it's all about and both Taiwan as well as the Philippines are part of it. So yeah Taiwan would have a closer relationship with the Philippines than a country in Europe.
 

benb

Active member
I’ve been thinking about Portland’s needling about how some groups, call it country or state or city, don’t like to ”work”. It’s a pretty harsh and unprovable slander, but there’s something to it. I think it has to do with the growing and PPE requirements to protect the fab and workers from chemicals.

What people hate about fabs is the gown, the face mask, the safety glasses, the PPE. It is a very personal, basic thing. You have to wear a gown and then, for periods of time, chemical gown and chemical gloves, on top of that, and it gets hot, and you sweat. Then you have to go out into the office and look sweaty. So its embarassing. People hate this and they quit. I view this as a reasonable but Portland views it as aversion to work.

Tropical climates are the worst for wearing PPE. In Hsinchu, gowns get soggy, so nasty it makes my skin crawl. A fab in New York, or Dresden, is a better place for a fab because it’s a northern climate. Austin is an OK climate for a fab except for June, July and August. Phoenix is OK except for 8 months of the year. Ireland is fine, I imagine. Scotland used to have fabs; that is a great place for them.

I think a fab in Vancouver, BC (Canada) would be great. Japan has fabs in some northern places. This is where fabs should be. Then people won’t get soggy and quit and Portland won’t blame them.
 
Top