TSMC Arizona struggles to overcome vast differences between Taiwanese and US work culture

[hist78]

A small technicality but for the Taiwan “assignee” they are all E2.

There is the fit and desire to do semiconductor and than the fit to TSMC culture.

Let’s be honest the way and how they work for the engineer or bottom line worker little to want to work except the money. Most TSMC tolerate it for money, personal, private pride or honor. TSMC pays more and offers more upward mobility than anyone else in Taiwan. Given the culture any company that offered similar and TSMC Taiwan would have a huge attrition problem. Don’t fault the model, exploit the worker and pay them darn well and company, management, stockholder, and customers and worker all do well, suck it up and finish this for me tonight

One could argue Intel fab was similar but the stock and company did well so many stayed but lots of people always looked to leave the fab there too, fab and manufacturing is hard!

Yes, you are correct that E2 visa is more appropriate in the TSMC Arizona case. Taiwan (Republic of China) and US signed the treaty way back in 1948.

If US government allows Intel to bring 10,572 foreign workers (2022~ 2024) under the H1B visa regulation to work on the US soil, there is no reason for US not to fulfill the treaty responsibility to allow TSMC to bring 1,000 engineers and technicians to work in the TSMC's Arizona fabs.

"An E-2 visa, or Treaty Investor visa, is a non-immigrant visa that allows citizens of certain countries to live and work in the United States. To qualify, the applicant must invest a substantial amount of capital in a U.S. business or work for a company owned by someone from their country in a certain role. The visa is valid for three months to five years and can be extended indefinitely if the investment or trade continues to meet requirements."

Source: Google Generative AI, Google Search Lab.

 

[Daniel Nenni]

There's a lot I admire about TSMC, mostly execution in Taiwan and customer service, but their prowess in building and operating fabs in the US, so far, does not impress me much.

Agreed. Hopefully the AZ fab build was a learning experience for TSMC. I would really like to see more TSMC fabs and packaging plants in the US. Generally there are two sides to a problem like this AZ build. Everything is not TSMC's fault. The AZ side needs to own up to their part as well but that would not get as many clicks as the TSMC bashing.

TSMC did well with the Japan build though and we will see how Dresden goes. Then compare the three and do a root cause analysis.

 

[BruceA]

Agreed. Hopefully the AZ fab build was a learning experience for TSMC. I would really like to see more TSMC fabs and packaging plants in the US. Generally there are two sides to a problem like this AZ build. Everything is not TSMC's fault. The AZ side needs to own up to their part as well but that would not get as many clicks as the TSMC bashing.

TSMC did well with the Japan build though and we will see how Dresden goes. Then compare the three and do a root cause analysis.

There is a lot already written about Japan and how and why they hit schedule.

Dig deeper about Az and talk or really interpolate between what has been written. And the truth in Az is clear.

Let’s watch and see if TSMC leaned as Germany will be more challenging and less for its unique reasons.

 

[BruceA]

If US government allows Intel to bring 10,572 foreign workers (2022~ 2024) under the H1B visa regulation to work on the US soil, there is no reason for US not to fulfill the treaty responsibility to allow TSMC to bring 1,000 engineers and technicians to work in the TSMC's Arizona fabs.

The many H1B for Intel and other companies were immigrants already here for education or other reasons.

It’s another thing to approve thousands upon thousands of workers into the US. For a moment let’s not discuss whether there were 10000 construction workers available, you saw the blow back and PR problem from bring a few hundred construction and hook up people. Imagine if TSMC brought a few thousand pipefitters, electricians and other trades to work the way they do in Taiwan what the labor unions would do. TSMC narrative was to employ tens of thousands and if they brought 90% of the engineering and technicians as well as say 30% of the construction that would be a real political problem.

Who starts a brand new factory in a new country with the mix TSMC did and not expect issues. Who hires general contractors and sub contractors that never built a fab and trades that aren’t familiar with your way and style and not expect a problem?

 

[Daniel Nenni]

There is a lot already written about Japan and how and why they hit schedule.

Dig deeper about Az and talk or really interpolate between what has been written. And the truth in Az is clear.

Let’s watch and see if TSMC leaned as Germany will be more challenging and less for its unique reasons.

What, in your opinion, is the truth in AZ? I only know from the TSMC side. Let’s just say that expectations were not set correctly.

 

[blueone]

Agreed. Hopefully the AZ fab build was a learning experience for TSMC. I would really like to see more TSMC fabs and packaging plants in the US. Generally there are two sides to a problem like this AZ build. Everything is not TSMC's fault. The AZ side needs to own up to their part as well but that would not get as many clicks as the TSMC bashing.

By far, everything is not TSMC's fault. I wouldn't just characterize the problems in AZ fab construction as a state-level issue, many of the issues (and most of mine) are federal. We are not even close as a nation to a decision that making development easier should be a national priority. I think we suck at it.

TSMC did well with the Japan build though and we will see how Dresden goes. Then compare the three and do a root cause analysis.

It was obvious that Japan would be the easiest to execute in. Japan has its own issues, but the evidence is that they haven't lost the recipe about prioritizing commercial development. I wish the US was still like that. We aren't.

Tesla's experience in Germany does not bode well for TSMC, or Intel for that matter. Of course vehicle and battery plants are less complex than fabs, but some of the permitting and environmental challenges are similar because of the scale of Tesla's facilities. What a mess, perhaps worse than our problems in the US.

I think TSMC has done moderately well WRT getting the US and state governments here on board and moving construction along, but the cultural aloofness they seem to enjoy communicating and demonstrating looks worse than not doing themselves any favors, it might be their undoing. I think TSMC executives need some training in the US notion of "American Exceptionalism", and how to cope with it. It seems to me these ideas permeate the federal government.

TSMC is not going to change the US on its own. The fundamental question I think lies ahead for TSMC executives is, how strongly do you really want to succeed in US manufacturing? I'm not convinced they're emotionally ready to do what's necessary.

 

[Artificer60]

Please don't get me started on Morris.

One line from the article made me wonder:



It implies they were asking engineers to do construction-related work. That seems far-fetched, or is it?

As for spending 18 months in Taiwan after I graduated from college, that would have been a non-starter for me. Not just being away from friends and family at the prime of my life would bother me, it would be an acre-sized red flag signaling indoctrination rather than actual training.

I spent 13 years as a process engineer and had the opportunity to train several members of my team. I can honestly say that it took at least a year before a new engineer was making a net positive addition to the team. During that year it took me more time to do my work (and theirs) than the time they saved me. I can say from personal experience that if you want to bring the fab up with new employees 18 months is not at all an unreasonable expectation.

 

[Artificer60]

"TSMC is known for its rigorous working conditions. It’s not uncommon for people to be called into work for emergencies in the middle of the night."

If you think this doesn't happen in US fabs, you , like Morris Chang, are delusional. Just watch how many engineers get drug in a 02:30 when a blower on the roof catches on fire and causes an evacuation of the fab.

 

[Barnsley]

"TSMC is known for its rigorous working conditions. It’s not uncommon for people to be called into work for emergencies in the middle of the night."

If you think this doesn't happen in US fabs, you , like Morris Chang, are delusional. Just watch how many engineers get drug in a 02:30 when a blower on the roof catches on fire and causes an evacuation of the fab.

There is a widespread belief in East Asia that people in "the west" are very lazy , I live here and its popular opinion.

 

[Artificer60]

I owned the plating line in a Taiwanese owned PCB shop that was located in the US for several years. I've seen that attitude up close and personal. But it doesn't change the fact that the void rate on my plating line was a fraction of the void rate of the shops back in Taiwan. It killed them to ask how I did it and then they still wouldn't implement what I did. Not Invented Here is a real thing, both in Taiwan and here.

 

[jim_22222]

There is a lot already written about Japan and how and why they hit schedule.

Dig deeper about Az and talk or really interpolate between what has been written. And the truth in Az is clear.

Let’s watch and see if TSMC leaned as Germany will be more challenging and less for its unique reasons.

TSMC might have a genuine fear of leaking their secret recipes in AZ. There aren't many secrets left for them to build an advantage. They learned all of TIs tricks from their founders who worked there. China has basically learned most of its tricks already but has been suppressed by the CHIPS Act.

 

[jim_22222]

"TSMC is known for its rigorous working conditions. It’s not uncommon for people to be called into work for emergencies in the middle of the night."

If you think this doesn't happen in US fabs, you , like Morris Chang, are delusional. Just watch how many engineers get drug in a 02:30 when a blower on the roof catches on fire and causes an evacuation of the fab.

MU/TI/samsung has been running fabs in US for decades. not a big deal. no need to exaggerate

 

[blueone]

China has basically learned most of its tricks already but has been suppressed by the CHIPS Act.

The CHIPS Act is not what is restricting China from getting the latest chip equipment technologies or chips themselves. The restrictions are the result of various presidential executive orders, starting in the Trump administration and expanded in the Biden administration to restrict sales of US-based technology in various forms to China (and other "countries of concern"), on national security grounds. These executive orders cover semiconductor, quantum computing, and AI technologies.

 

[Artificer60]

MU/TI/samsung has been running fabs in US for decades. not a big deal. no need to exaggerate

Exaggerate? My point was simply that engineers being expected to come into the fab in the middle of the night is not unique to TSMC, which the original quote seemed to imply. And that expectation isn't limited to the Semiconductor industry either. It's an expectation in any 24/7 manufacturing environment. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[Maximus]

Rather than focusing on 'laziness,' another aspect people have highlighted is 'obedience.' Below is a story from 25 years ago, shared by Shang-Yi Chiang (former TSMC Co-COO) in an oral interview.
Reference: https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2022/07/102792671-05-01-acc.pdf (page 34)
----
Chiang: I went through one experience. I was very shocked. I share with you, it's an interesting story. In
1999, TSMC at that time tried to start this wafer fab in Oregon called WaferTech. And the performance
was very poor. Was far behind TSMC fab. Had given them all kinds of headaches. So, finally they
decided one morning the VP in charge of manufacture, he got a list of 20 people, and he called one by
one to his office. Everyone go to his office for ten minutes. And early ones didn't know, because they
never talked to this VP--

Fairbairn: Right.

Chiang: -- you know, what he wants? And then later on, these guys come out, "Oh, why did he call you
in the office?" "TSMC want to send you to Wafer Tech, for assignment for two years. You go back to start
to apply for visa, get your passport. And be ready in three weeks."

Fairbairn: And go back to Taiwan?

Chiang: From Taiwan to U.S.

Fairbairn: Oh, Taiwan to the U.S. Oh, I-- move the people from there. Okay.

Chiang: Right. So, they moved 20 people, including the fab manager, and in every area, all the
engineering area and manufacturing area, Manufacture Supervisor, QRA, sent the entire team, 20
people.

Fairbairn: Mm hm, somebody from each group.

Chiang: Right. That's the way they did it. I look at that, wow. And three weeks later, 20 people on the
same airplane to U.S. And they live in the same place. They told me every morning, these people they all
carpool, they had ten cars, just drive to work <laughs> and go home. And they fixed that fab. And then
during this time, I was shocked, because in U.S. that's not the way they do it. If you're in HP, if we have
an assignment in France and some people look at people profile, "Oh, this may be a candidate." His boss
will probe him. "Oh, we have the job there. It's very interesting. And it's very important for the company."

Fairbairn: Right. Try to convince him.

Chiang: Try to convince him.

Fairbairn: Right.

Chiang: "And just think about it," two weeks later, "Oh, have you thought about that? Well, good. Go talk
to your family and see how it works." And a month later, "Oh, it looks good," you go there to interview.
And come back, oh, everything seems to go on, and you talk about your package. Oh, later on, go with
your wife to house-hunting. They wait until summer, your kids out of school, you go there six months later.
At TSMC, it's three weeks.

Fairbairn: It's 20 people, boom.

Chiang: Twenty people.

Fairbairn: How long did they stay there in Oregon?

Chiang: Two years.

 

[blueone]

Yet another TSMC executive who didn't know where one of their fabs is located. A COO no less.

 

[jim_22222]

Rather than focusing on 'laziness,' another aspect people have highlighted is 'obedience.' Below is a story from 25 years ago, shared by Shang-Yi Chiang (former TSMC Co-COO) in an oral interview.
Reference: https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2022/07/102792671-05-01-acc.pdf (page 34)
----
Chiang: I went through one experience. I was very shocked. I share with you, it's an interesting story. In
1999, TSMC at that time tried to start this wafer fab in Oregon called WaferTech. And the performance
was very poor. Was far behind TSMC fab. Had given them all kinds of headaches. So, finally they
decided one morning the VP in charge of manufacture, he got a list of 20 people, and he called one by
one to his office. Everyone go to his office for ten minutes. And early ones didn't know, because they
never talked to this VP--

Fairbairn: Right.

Chiang: -- you know, what he wants? And then later on, these guys come out, "Oh, why did he call you
in the office?" "TSMC want to send you to Wafer Tech, for assignment for two years. You go back to start
to apply for visa, get your passport. And be ready in three weeks."

Fairbairn: And go back to Taiwan?

Chiang: From Taiwan to U.S.

Fairbairn: Oh, Taiwan to the U.S. Oh, I-- move the people from there. Okay.

Chiang: Right. So, they moved 20 people, including the fab manager, and in every area, all the
engineering area and manufacturing area, Manufacture Supervisor, QRA, sent the entire team, 20
people.

Fairbairn: Mm hm, somebody from each group.

Chiang: Right. That's the way they did it. I look at that, wow. And three weeks later, 20 people on the
same airplane to U.S. And they live in the same place. They told me every morning, these people they all
carpool, they had ten cars, just drive to work <laughs> and go home. And they fixed that fab. And then
during this time, I was shocked, because in U.S. that's not the way they do it. If you're in HP, if we have
an assignment in France and some people look at people profile, "Oh, this may be a candidate." His boss
will probe him. "Oh, we have the job there. It's very interesting. And it's very important for the company."

Fairbairn: Right. Try to convince him.

Chiang: Try to convince him.

Fairbairn: Right.

Chiang: "And just think about it," two weeks later, "Oh, have you thought about that? Well, good. Go talk
to your family and see how it works." And a month later, "Oh, it looks good," you go there to interview.
And come back, oh, everything seems to go on, and you talk about your package. Oh, later on, go with
your wife to house-hunting. They wait until summer, your kids out of school, you go there six months later.
At TSMC, it's three weeks.

Fairbairn: It's 20 people, boom.

Chiang: Twenty people.

Fairbairn: How long did they stay there in Oregon?

Chiang: Two years.

I think you all should stop been too skeptical over US workers. Chang and Mark Liu all worked in US fabs for long time. They were totally satisfied. The only issue is they couldn't get the promotion they wanted and left. The real problem is how to promote those tw engineers to the highest level in US companies instead of forcing them to move back home. Huang is doing fine.

 

[blueone]

Yet another TSMC executive who didn't know where one of their fabs is located. A COO no less.

I didn't mean for this post to be humorous, yet I suppose it seems that way in retrospect. TSMC is one of the world's greatest companies. Its very foundation is fanatical attention to detail and precision. Every time I hear from TSMC that WaferTech is in Oregon, I wonder about what that gaff really means. Lately I come away with the impression that it is a joke or an insult against the US that I'm not privy to. A few people have told me that they think I'm obsessed with a silly mistake, but I've come to the conclusion that I don't believe these brilliant executives were repeatedly making a silly mistake. It is too out of character to be believable. I've tried to imagine how Pat Gelsinger would be treated if he built and opened an expensive facility in Taiwan, but kept saying the plant was in the wrong province or county. I don't think the responses would be flattering, and I doubt he would make that mistake more than once.

I know this quote was in the distant past, and I know that WaferTech is now TSMC Washington, but I'm still left wondering what was going on.

 

[jim_22222]

I didn't mean for this post to be humorous, yet I suppose it seems that way in retrospect. TSMC is one of the world's greatest companies. Its very foundation is fanatical attention to detail and precision. Every time I hear from TSMC that WaferTech is in Oregon, I wonder about what that gaff really means. Lately I come away with the impression that it is a joke or an insult against the US that I'm not privy to. A few people have told me that they think I'm obsessed with a silly mistake, but I've come to the conclusion that I don't believe these brilliant executives were repeatedly making a silly mistake. It is too out of character to be believable. I've tried to imagine how Pat Gelsinger would be treated if he built and opened an expensive facility in Taiwan, but kept saying the plant was in the wrong province or county. I don't think the responses would be flattering, and I doubt he would make that mistake more than once.

I know this quote was in the distant past, and I know that WaferTech is now TSMC Washington, but I'm still left wondering what was going on.

Mark Liu once was a manager in a US fab, and never got a chance to enter the vp level. He quit and became the ceo of tsmc later. Did you learn anything here? something wrong with the US system.

https://www.crunchbase.com/person/mark-liu-2

 

[Daniel Nenni]

Let's see if Dresden "struggles" with the TSMC build:

TSMC Breaks Ground on €10 Billion German Plant in Chip War Salvo

(Bloomberg) -- Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. broke ground in eastern Germany on its first European plant as the continent seeks to safeguard its chip supplies amid growing US-China tensions. “We are dependent on semiconductors for our sustainable future technologies, but we must not...

semiwiki.com

Japan certainly did not "struggle" like AZ did.