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Samsung’s 14nm in mass production?

Lets take a look back at 20nm. I won a dozen lunches on that one:

Apple Will NOT Manufacture SoCs at Intel
by Daniel Nenni
Published on 12-09-2012
My bet is: moving forward Apple will use Samsung for 28nm (iPhone 5s) and TSMC for 20nm (iPhone 6). Intel certainly has a shot at 14nm and 10nm but never ever count out TSMC. If you want to bet a lunch on Apple manufacturing at Samsung or Intel for 20nm post it in the comment section. I will cover all lunch bets against TSMC.
 
@user_2013101 :

seems like this kind of speculation is pretty common. Digitimes, a Taiwanese newspaper, had a penchant for pumping TSMC : Three Years Later, DigiTimes still insists Apple Will Ditch Samsung for TSMC (June, 2013) or "Fact-Checking Digitimes, the Taiwanese Apple Rumor Source that Keeps Crying 'Wolf!'" I'm no psychic, so I don't know if TSMC's PR was behind this (putting my tin-foil hat on), but they did eventually get it right. I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day.

TSMC never talks about its Apple orders publicly. In contrast, Samsung’s president personally delivered the lie. See news below. Rumor sites can write whatever they please to increase view counts. It’s quite different from the statements of a chief executive from among the world’s top 3 semi companies.

Oct 1, 2014:
Samsung’s president, Kim Ki-nam, “told reporters at headquarters in Seoul that once the company begins to supply Apple with chips using its latest technology, profits ‘will improve positively,’

Samsung is expected to start producing application processors (APs) for clients such as Apple, Qualcomm, and AMD, using its 14-nanometre process around the end of the year.

October 1, 2014
Samsung expects sales boost from Apple chip deal | ZDNet

In addition, I am not sure if DIGITIMES is a Taiwanese publication. From the Date/Time format of the web site, DIGITIMES seems to be a British media. It merely has some journalists reporting from Taiwan, considering Taiwan’s crucial role in the semi supply chain.

Furthermore, DIGITIMES frequently spreads rumors unfriendly to TSMC. The following is a recent example.

TSMC is expected to clarify the latest market speculations indicating that Qualcomm reportedly has put a halt on trial production of its next generation chips built using a 16nm FinFET process at TSMC as reported by the Chinese-language Liberty Times on January 14.

A significant improvement of yield rates of 14nm FinFET process at Samsung Electronics is the main reason for Qualcomm to halt its trial production at TSMC, said the paper.

14 January 2015
TSMC to face tough questions on Qualcomm orders - related content
 
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Apple and QCOM are two largest customers of TSMC, accounting for 35+% of the revenue.

Now, Korean media is saying that Samsung had won most, if not all, of Apple orders this year. These rumors are further spread like wild fires by the US media.

DIGITIMES spreads the rumors that QCOM, in addition to AMD and NVDA, is dumping TSMC, too. Everyone is jumping off this sinking ship called TSMC.

But, TSMC estimates to grow 15% in revenue this year. TSM stock prices had made 6 new all time high’s, barely 2 months into the year.

Someone is lying here. They can’t be all true. TSMC misleads with unrealistically rosy outlook? The market had been deceived?
 
@user_2013101 : Hmm. that's odd. That's not what I'm seeing. According to your ZDnet article, Samsung executive Kim Kim Ki-nam said two things:

...
once the company begins to supply Apple with chips using its latest technology, profits "will improve positively" ...

but never confirmed any "mass production" schedule.

"...
Kim declined to comment on when Samsung will start mass producing said chips for clients. ..."

otherwise, I don't see any evidence that Samsung’s president personally delivered the lie. Your quote "Samsung is expected .." is misattributed to Samsung executive Kim Ki-Nam, quite deliberately, it seems. Perhaps I'm missing something here, not reading between the lines?

As for Digitimes, oh, sure, Digit Times, a Taiwanese daily newspaper, is quite widely cited by the mainstream media and supply chain analysts (Forbes, Fortune, Asymco, etc). But they are better known for their misreporting or wildly speculative reports that often favor Taiwanese domestic companies like TSMC (see how they are ridiculed by 9to5Mac or the Times's expose on Digitimes' shady reporting). Of course, they also report stuff that are quite obvious time to time (eg, Qualcomm article you cited here).

If the semi industry is shady as you say they are, I guessing there is no reason not to suspect that Digitimes is the mouthpiece for TSMC's PR department.
 
@user_2013101 :Your quote "Samsung is expected .." is misattributed to Samsung executive Kim Ki-Nam, quite deliberately, it seems. ...

As for Digitimes, oh, sure, Digit Times, ... they are better known for their misreporting or wildly speculative reports ... Of course, they also report stuff that are quite obvious time to time (eg, Qualcomm article you cited here).

Hmm… This poster skillfully shifts the topic to DIGITIMES. This is another tactic to cover up the Samsung lies.

He avoids the real issues:


  • Everyone reads the ZDNet story get the impression that Samsung president confirmed Samsung had won A9 orders and the production to start soon. Many subsequent stories cited the ZDNet story and reported as such. I merely quoted paragraphs from the ZDNet story: Samsung is expected to start producing application processors (APs) for clients such as Apple, Qualcomm, and AMD, using its 14-nanometre process around the end of the year. This poster put those words in my mouth. Besides, this poster didn’t disagree that A9 went to Samsung.



  • The poster also assume QCOM had abandoned TSMC (and DIGITIMES merely repeats the obvious.) But, he avoids the real question: QCOM is 20% of TSMC revenue; how can TSMC grow another 15% if it has lost QCOM, in addition to losing Apple? TSMC and the market are wrong or the media reports are wrong?


  • Does Samsung have the capacity to produce 14nm Exynos, Apple A9s, AND QCOM’s 14nm Snapdragon this year?

Avoid real questions. Don’t even bother with Samsung or TSMC. Just beat DIGITIMES. Wow… This poster is really skillful, perhaps professional.

This poster might have underestimated the readers’ intelligence.
 
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I think we just don't know with any high degree of certainty what will happen later in the year, when new iProducts are introduced, and torn down, and we discover for real who won the iProducts business. But there are some things we know about Samsung, Intel and TSMC.

Intel paid AMD $1.25B to settle a lawsuit relating to Intel's strong-arm tactics to ensure Dell and other PC makers used Intel exclusively. Samsung (along with Micron, Elpida, Infineon, and Hynix) plead guilty to charges of conspiracy to fix DRAM prices from 1999-2005. There were fines and/or jail time for individuals as well. No references but Google it.

Samsung CEO was charged for corruption in 2008. Again, no references, but Google it.

TSMC has not had any any corruption or anti-competitive investigations that I'm aware of.

Getting to the point here: TSMC executives have painted a rosy picture for TSMC in 2015. You can probably trust that. I do not agree that sunshine for TSMC means rain for Samsung. The mobile SoC market is growing rapidly and there is plenty of business to go around.

As a scrupulous company, TSMC doesn't divulge their customers' business. That puts them at a disadvantage vs. less scrupulous competitors, in the short term. In the long run, TSMC's business model (pure play foundry) supports this scrupulousness, builds confidence in partners, and provides a big advantage. Others may disagree with me, but I would place more weight on TSMC's silence than on Samsung's loudest statements.
 
Now that it is March 1st and MWC is live in Barcelona, some of the specific 14nm Exynos 7420 details are now public. The Samsung Galaxy S6 will be available from 10 April in 20 countries and features the 14nm Exynos 7420 SOC. Given the volume of a two phone (S6 and S6 Edge) launch, I would safely conclude that 14nm must be yielding well enough to supply millions of units. A simple google search will provide plenty and various sources, however, I will link to Anandtech as they have a few actual comments regarding Samsung's process in relation to Intel's (I don't agree with their comments, for the record, as I thought the 14nm represented a small but true shrink from their 20nm process) Regardless, here is their take... AnandTech | Samsung Announces the Galaxy S 6 and S 6 Edge
 
AFAIK, the Samsung 14 nm process is a FinFET process. If Samsung puts Exynos in their 2015 Galaxy phone and tablet lineup I have problems to believe that they can manage both their internal demand and the (bigger) volume from a customer like Apple.... in 14nm that is.

I'm too lazy to Google, but did they increase their Capex a lot in 2013/2014 ?

That's why I wouldn't be surprised if Apple sticked to TSMC for 2015.....

EDIT: having read the Ananadtech article, I see now that Samsung's 14nm process is purely marketing BS with "small" FinFET devices and
interconnect still based on 20 nm rules.
 
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The big capital investment in 2014 occured at Global Foundries, not Samsung. That is what is so confusing and new--Samsung essentially under-invested in 14nm except to develop the technology. Samsung is the source of GF's 14nm technology. GF has been ramping up production in Fab 8 in Malta, NY and now it would appear that site is key to producing Exynos and probably A9 parts.

Malta is a very modern site, probably the leading foundry fab in the world now. Good for them.

On the topic of 20nm interconnect--I believe Joshua Ho of Anandtech is correct in pointing out the advantage Intel possesses with 14nm interconnection. Take a look at figure 4 in this link--Material innovation plays a huge role in reducing RC delay at 20nm and below. New metals with reduced scattering or mean free path play a role. Finfets are great but not much help if you can't get the signal out without huge RC delay, this is the major problem Intel solved at 14nm, that others didn't have time to solve since they were behind in the Finfet race.
 
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So you're telling that Samsung's 14nm process is essentially a half-node ? So.. not that different from what TSMC is calling 16nm+ ? Any idea what TSMC did in their 16nm FinFET+ process ? Do they also stick to 20 nm-like interconnect ?
 
So you're telling that Samsung's 14nm process is essentially a half-node ? So.. not that different from what TSMC is calling 16nm+ ? Any idea what TSMC did in their 16nm FinFET+ process ? Do they also stick to 20 nm-like interconnect ?

All the 14nm/16nm processes except Intel use similar or identical metal stacks to 20nm, including Samsung/GF and TSMC (16FF and 16FF+), these are double-patterned using LELE with 64nm minimum metal pitch. They are basically 20nm metal with better transistors.

Intel have smaller metal pitch (52nm?) by using SADP, this is good for CPUs (higher density) but bad for SoC (very restrictive design rules, higher design cost for layout and checking, more DP metal layers, higher cost).

Apart from being more aggressive with design rules Intel aren't doing anything special with the fine-pitch metal layers -- they are using air-gap dielectric in some of the upper layers to reduce RC delays on long clock nets but this has no impact on density.
 
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So you're telling that Samsung's 14nm process is essentially a half-node ? So.. not that different from what TSMC is calling 16nm+ ? Any idea what TSMC did in their 16nm FinFET+ process ? Do they also stick to 20 nm-like interconnect ?


I understand that many Intel supporters look for evidences of Intel’s leads in process technologies.

But, it is getting more difficult to find such evidences, except in the area of technical juggernauts. For example, cherry pick a few features, such as the metal layers what not, and claim foundries’ 14/16nm is really 20nm, and Intel leads by one generation. Or, Intel’s FinFET leads by 3.5 years.

However, evidences of Intel’s shrinking leads at least, if not falling behind outright, are increasingly abundant. By the end of this year, foundries will delivery much more, perhaps 2-3 times more, 14/16nm FinFET chips than Intel.

TSMC 20nm A8 is denser than Intel's 14nm Core-M
https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/f2/samsung-strikes-chip-deal-apple-4864-4.html#post17087

Intel’s 14nm Cherry Trail SoC has difficulty beating foundries’ 20nm and 14nm chips in performance. See linked thread below:

Intel 14nm Cherry Trail SoC spotted on Geekbench
https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/f296/intel-14nm-cherry-trail-soc-spotted-geekbench-5597.html

That said, however, I am not bearish on INTC, because Intel’s PC/server monopoly has not yet been affected by the changing landscape of the chip-making technologies. The investment value of Intel is another topic and deserves its own thread.
 
[h=4] 14nm Exynos benchmarks [/h]

At MWC, Samsung formally announced the Galaxy S6, powered by 14nm Exynos 7420.

Not unexpectedly, Samsung’s PR machine is out in full force and generates headlines:

"Benchmark tests show Galaxy S6 performance crushes everything else on the market"

"Galaxy S5 Successor Crushes Apple iPhone 6 and Other Rivals"

"Samsung Galaxy S6 storms the benchmarks "


[h=4]Reality Check[/h]

Only in the multi-cores category, S6 shows clear advantages, but falls behind in single core and memory, and about the same in the Browermark.

And, surprise, surprise, NVDA’s Tegra K1, built on the ancient 28nm process, actually grabs the top spot in some categories.

The highly ballyhooed 14nm Exynos delivers pretty limited advantages over 20nm and 28nm chips built at TSMC.

 
Can we please ban this blatant troll from this forum?

Only the most delusional would suddenly try to put such a nonsensical spin on performance and then deduct process characteristics out of it. Of course Apple wins on single core numbers, their CPU is twice the size of an A57. Of course Nvidia wins too, just like Apple their core is much larger and uses 3x the power. You're comparing a tablet chip to a smartphone one.

It's already been proven that the 14nm process allowed Samsung to lower voltages by 200 to 300mV over their 20nm chips.

And of course this is again turned into an argument in favor of TSMC. Please get rid of this FUD spreading fool with an agenda, this forum should be beyond this nonsense.
 
...Only the most delusional would suddenly try to put such a nonsensical spin on performance ... Of course Apple wins on single core numbers, their CPU is twice the size of an A57....

By the same logic, the dual cores of A8 are equivalent in size to four A57 cores, therefore, the Exynos’ better score in the multi-core is the result of its additional four A53 cores? Samsung’s 14nm process delivers little true advantages?

Why Exynos fails to score better in memory and Browsermark?

Another data point: 14nm Exynos with 3GB of RAM has Antutu score of 60978, while MeidaTek’s MT6595, 32 bit cores, on 2GB RAM, built on 28nm process, released last year, and millions of MT6595 phones been sold, scores 51356.

A 14nm/64-bit chip on 3GB RAM leads a 28nm/32bit one on 2GB: 60978 to 51356.


Readers will decide if the 14nm Exynos indeed delivers very limited advantages.
 
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Why would Snapdragon 810 perform differently than Exynos 7240? They have exactly the same processor cores. The benchmarks show equivalence where equivalence is expected. The difference lies in the power and thermal characteristics, which undoubtedly favor Samsung, with a 14nm Finfet process, compared to the 20nm HKMG process.

Is it just me or are these benchmarks like ink blot tests--people see what they want to see in them? The differences between one smartphone chip or another are probably pretty small now that Qualcomm, Samsung and Nvidia have caught up to the Apple A8. Even the Intel chip seems to hold it's own. Don't be a sucker for marketing and fan-boy-ism.
 
By the same logic, the dual cores of A8 are equivalent in size to four A57 cores, therefore, the Exynos’ better score in the multi-core is the result of its additional four A53 cores? Samsung’s 14nm process delivers little true advantages?

Why Exynos fails to score better in memory and Browsermark?

Another data point: 14nm Exynos with 3GB of RAM has Antutu score of 60978, while MeidaTek’s MT6595, 32 bit cores, on 2GB RAM, built on 28nm process, released last year, and millions of MT6595 phones been sold, scores 51356.

A 14nm/64-bit chip on 3GB RAM leads a 28nm/32bit one on 2GB: 60978 to 51356.



Readers will decide if the 14nm Exynos indeed delivers very limited advantages.
Yes the 4 A57 ARE as big as Apple's A8. No the A53 play no major role.

Again due to lack of understanding of benchmarks you resort to flawed conclusions, the memory scores come from ARM's memory architecture:
ARM's relatively poor memory bandwidth figures have garnered them a poor reputation when it comes to memory performance, but what we are seeing here might be a gross misrepresentation of real-world performance. To understand how these figures come to be, we need to look at how the CPU is wired to the SoC's interconnect and memory controllers. ARM, as opposed to designs by Apple or NVIDIA, uses separate read and write data-ports in its fabric. On the cluster level, this is a dual 128-bit interface (one for reads, one for writes) that connects to matching ports of the SoC's memory controllers via the CCI's (Cache Coherent Interconnect) crossbar architecture. On the Exynos 5430 and 5433, the CCI runs at half the DRAM frequency, meaning 412.5 MHz for the aforementioned SoCs. This results in a maximum physical bandwidth of 6.6 GB/s in each direction.

What most of today's synthetic benchmarks portray is only the bandwidth measured in either direction, giving ARM a distinctive disadvantage. Total achievable bandwidth can reach double these figures. In fact, when we execute simultaneous read and write tests (multithreaded on two CPUs) we benchmark bandwidth numbers reaching the theoretical peaks of the memory controllers at 13.2GB/s. Interestingly, it seems ARM is employing the same setup to the L2 cache as bandwidth there also doubles to up to 25GB/s for the 5430's A15 and 27.5GB/s for the 5433's A57 clusters.

As to why ARM prefers this kind of configuration is a good question. We suspect that there may be power or latency advantages to the design, but we cannot be certain of it. Overall, it should have less of an impact in real-world scenarios as the benchmarks would lead one believe. Use cases where computations are either read or write heavy should only appear in scenarios such as video encoding or texture decompression such as loading video game assets, with the the former not being a real issue in the mobile space due to fixed-function hardware dedicated to the task.
AnandTech | ARM A53/A57/T760 investigated - Samsung Galaxy Note 4 Exynos Review
Furthermore RAM size has absolutely no impact on RAM speed in benchmarks. This is basic knowledge since the advent of PC benchmarking.

Your arguments again revolve around cherry-picked data. You claim a 60k value from leaks and reports from January, but you ignore the multitude of sites who actually benchmarked the device at MWC:

Benchmarking Samsung's Exynos 7420 on the Galaxy S6 | News & Opinion | PCMag.com
Galaxy S6 Vs. HTC One M9: Benchmark shows Samsung smokes HTC | BGR

And many more if you just search for it. Every outlet is reporting numbers around the 70k mark.

Yes readers will decide which is faster now that they can read the full story, and not only biased and misinformed reportings which you continue to post.
 
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