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? On Multi Layer Battery Fabrication

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
With battery charging time becoming critical in everything, especially cars, could the large format layering technology used in semis, solar and display be used to build a hundred layer and beyond a large single battery that would actually be a hundred or even a thousand batteries in parallel for fast, safe changing and discharging. I know AMAT builds the equipment for display and solar and Micron builds a staggering number of layers in memory. Could not some or not all of these technologies have value in building batteries if not already being used? The seems like it may work far better and faster to manufacture than cylindrical cells currently in use. Any additional views, thoughts or projections would be appreciated
 

brennan

New member
They are. Fabrication is planar, and then cylindrical cells are rolled up. A good google search for this is "cylindrical cell x ray" and you will see pretty obviously the 'rollup' nature. There are plenty of youtubes on the topic as well.

The layers in a battery are much larger than the 'layers' in 3DNAND. Manufacture isn't really the same.
 

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
I know cylindrical cells are rolled up, but what about decreasing the thickness and increasing the number dramatically so one is charging much faster by havin a massively parallel system that could also discharge faster?
 

Paul2

Member
I know cylindrical cells are rolled up, but what about decreasing the thickness and increasing the number dramatically so one is charging much faster by havin a massively parallel system that could also discharge faster?
Physics.

There is no trick against Ohm's law.
 

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
Any thoughts a a flat battery, like a display screen, stacked instead of rolled and massively parallel, but seperate batteries? There are numberous examples of very thin batteries, just stack them. Technically it would be a large number of seperate batteries.
 

peter

New member
That's literally how all large format prismatic cells are made vs cylindrical cells. Fewer cells, less material to go towards the cell housing, theoretically easier cell management. Most of them are going towards 600mm and 800mm cell length. Here's an article about LG Chem, but all the big prismatic cell manufacturers make it like that:


There's pros and cons for both methods in terms of safety margins, power/weight ratio, etc., hard to say one is far superior to the other.
 

Paul2

Member
That's literally how all large format prismatic cells are made vs cylindrical cells. Fewer cells, less material to go towards the cell housing, theoretically easier cell management. Most of them are going towards 600mm and 800mm cell length. Here's an article about LG Chem, but all the big prismatic cell manufacturers make it like that:


There's pros and cons for both methods in terms of safety margins, power/weight ratio, etc., hard to say one is far superior to the other.
There is quite a number of battery geometries for prismatic cells. Some a stacked, some are zigzagged, some are wound. Some have terminal attachment along the major axis, some minor, some opposite, some on the same side.

The last point about safety. You cannot do this with all battery chemistries. Some have very expansive cathode materials, which will buckle in big cells, necessitating too many individual cells. Some have issues with cooling at larger sizes. Some age too fast, and too unevenly to get use of extra dimensions (the risk of local wearout rises with the cell size.)

LFP cells get the most from prismatic shapes as they don't expand, or degas nearly at all during their service life, operate with less cooling, and wear out very gradually, and evenly.
 

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
Jagdeep Singh of Quatumscape says layering is the future in batteries on CNBC this morning and will have a pilot plant in San Jose before the end of the year and they have the capital to do it. Layering will be the future of batteries. Will add link if and when available.
 

Paul2

Member
Jagdeep Singh of Quatumscape says layering is the future in batteries on CNBC this morning and will have a pilot plant in San Jose before the end of the year and they have the capital to do it. Layering will be the future of batteries. Will add link if and when available.
All lithium batteries on the market are already multi-layered, like few hundred layers.
 

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
The point I was getting to with layering is that each layer would be essentially a small seperate battery run in parallel so you could have very fast charging and discharging, but still have large capacity.
 

Paul2

Member
The point I was getting to with layering is that each layer would be essentially a small seperate battery run in parallel so you could have very fast charging and discharging, but still have large capacity.
Do you mean having each cells having an individual conductor, and a charger? That's not different by much from charging them in series, except being more wasteful with materials, and requiring more cooling.
 

peter

New member
Each layer would be a small separate battery run in parallel? How're you going to get the increase in voltage to actually charge at a faster rate? You need high voltage to reduce wiring weight and volume. 500hp or 373kw would draw around a thousand amps on a typical 350-400v battery voltage system in most electric cars today and with the eventual 800v systems, no reason to run cells in parallel with the capacities prismatic cells are currently being made. You would think prismatic cells with the layering would be optimal and cheap and yet, here we are with Tesla pushing 4680 cylindrical cells. Still plenty of options in the industry, I hope there is diversity in the supply chain instead of a winner takes all!
 
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