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Intel's Conflict of Interest? Can it overcome TSMC

To add on, Apple (that company that is renowned for never forgiving or forgetting) went back to Samsung for second sourcing a mere two years after the alleged IP theft had occurred. If Samsung can still get major business from their competitors after that, and intel doesn’t have this kind of black mark on their record, I don’t really see people not using IFS due to IP concerns (assuming intel has shown they have put in place sufficient firewalls for their customers).


And where pray tell did intel say they “planned to be the largest foundry”? The messaging they always gave was number two. Dave also said something to the tune of:

“…funnily enough our internal business kind of makes us number 2. But the goal is to grow external to make us number 2…”.

Once again paraphrasing off of memory since I didn’t feel like digging through the transcript.
I'm not sure that Intel actually does "being number 2". Not successfully over any longer period. Being number 1, dominating markets and extracting well above average margins seems to be hardwired into their DNA.

It will be a very different Intel that's happy being number 2.

As with the current Intel messaging that they will continue to operate as a merged foundry and design company (they have to say this, regardless of what they might eventually do - which they probably don't yet know themselves), there's a gap between what they are currently saying and where a stable long-term equilibrium lies.
 
AMD to GF all over again, but without Mubadala money ?
Who is going to pay for IFS while it gets customers, Intel? If so why spin off and why customers should believe they will be treated on an equal footing.
If not, where is the money to keep going and stay in the development race until it builds market share and revenue.
Really sounds like AMD/GF 14 years later but in an even worse situation as there is no market to buy like with Chartered at the time.
 
I'm not sure that Intel actually does "being number 2". Not successfully over any longer period. Being number 1, dominating markets and extracting well above average margins seems to be hardwired into their DNA.

It will be a very different Intel that's happy being number 2.

As with the current Intel messaging that they will continue to operate as a merged foundry and design company (they have to say this, regardless of what they might eventually do - which they probably don't yet know themselves), there's a gap between what they are currently saying and where a stable long-term equilibrium lies.
Intel is number 2 or worse in most of its market segments for many years. All networking products, FPGAs, GPUs, and AI chips. Mobileye was spun back out with #1 share in ADAS, which IMO was a decision I don't understand. As for IFS, I think Intel is just being realistic for the next decade. That's about how long it might take for Intel to even dream about challenging TSMC. It looks to me like Intel's best bet to be a true challenger is for TSMC to stumble trying to be a multi-national manufacturer. In fact, if I were placing a bet, I'd bet on TSMC stumbling. Intel has already figured it out and executes.
 
On Intel as a second source;

Usually the reasoning for a second source is to keep your supplier in check. Normally the negotiation around second sourcing goes a little like this:

“Look, I know you have a better product and are better able to deliver but supplier B is offering to do this for 30% cheaper and we can’t ignore that cost differential.”

Then supplier A will usually come back with a better cost, maybe 20% less, because they don’t want to give their competitor a foothold with their customer. You just need a somewhat credible supplier B, so you throw a couple bones to supplier B now and then to keep them in business but really you want to go with supplier A.

What will make this more complicated is that Intel is expected to be higher cost than TSMC, so it’s hard to credibly negotiate and say “if you don’t give us the pricing we want, we are going to pay 20% more to Intel”. Unless of course Intel is willing to sacrifice margins or run at a loss, which they may well do. (Anyone remember contra revenue? Lol)

IFS will get thrown a few bones, and Intel PR can be expected to spin that into “Big name company chooses Intel!” With big name company almost certain to be Qualcomm because they are the most aggressive negotiators.

But realistically the best Intel can hope for is distant 2nd, which is not going to be a profitable venture.
 
On Intel as a second source;

Usually the reasoning for a second source is to keep your supplier in check. Normally the negotiation around second sourcing goes a little like this:

“Look, I know you have a better product and are better able to deliver but supplier B is offering to do this for 30% cheaper and we can’t ignore that cost differential.”

Then supplier A will usually come back with a better cost, maybe 20% less, because they don’t want to give their competitor a foothold with their customer. You just need a somewhat credible supplier B, so you throw a couple bones to supplier B now and then to keep them in business but really you want to go with supplier A.

What will make this more complicated is that Intel is expected to be higher cost than TSMC, so it’s hard to credibly negotiate and say “if you don’t give us the pricing we want, we are going to pay 20% more to Intel”. Unless of course Intel is willing to sacrifice margins or run at a loss, which they may well do. (Anyone remember contra revenue? Lol)

IFS will get thrown a few bones, and Intel PR can be expected to spin that into “Big name company chooses Intel!” With big name company almost certain to be Qualcomm because they are the most aggressive negotiators.

But realistically the best Intel can hope for is distant 2nd, which is not going to be a profitable venture.

However, if Intel can make its product and process earlier than market or its main competitor (TSMC) consistently. Then it's a different story. Intel will deserve to be charging at an equivalent margin as TSMC does. And that's what 20A + 18A brings to the table.
 
However, if Intel can make its product and process earlier than market or its main competitor (TSMC) consistently. Then it's a different story. Intel will deserve to be charging at an equivalent margin as TSMC does. And that's what 20A + 18A brings to the table.
*If* Intel deliver on schedule and with TSMC-level yields. That's a very big "if" given their recent history and current position...
 
There's also the question of who gets first dibs. In the case of Intel, Intel has to release 4 of their own products before anyone else is allowed to use the node. For TSMC, Apple has to launch their new iPhone SoC on the new node before anyone else is allowed to use it.
 
There's also the question of who gets first dibs. In the case of Intel, Intel has to release 4 of their own products before anyone else is allowed to use the node.
Do you have a reference to back that up, or are you guessing?
 
Actually, article from Scotten Jones
The idea behind figure 4 is that Intel will be designing and piloting four products on each new node before external customers get access to the node
 
Samsung Foundry revenue in 2022 is closer to $20B I believe, not $65.59B. The Samsung semiconductor revenue which includes memory is $65.59B. TSMC 2022 is $73.67B and Intel reported $63.05B. So now under Intel’s new foundry reporting it is a two horse race.

View attachment 1270
Yes, the 65.59 B$ is the global semiconductor revenue of Samsung in 2022 with a huge part 69.6% related to their memory, still their main semiconductor business…

But the rest, around/close to 20 B$ (19.44 B$…) is probably “mainly” related to their soon 20 years (still 18 years…) pure foundry business which grew a bit becoming the number 2 foundry still far away from TSMC in term of pure foundry revenues, but “not only” (being without visibility on the details of the splits of revenues outside memory…), as their old/historical IDM business System LSI making many non memory (microcontrollers/sensors/MOSFET…) components is still selling that both externally and within the rest (not semiconductor…) of the Samsung group…
 
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