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Intel Cuts Dividend by 66%

Any thoughts on Intel getting crushed between AMD and Nvidia? If not, what market segment will Intel fill?

To me it's clear that the IDM model is broken. Intel needs to decide if it wants to be a fabless company or a foundry. If they go fabless, I think they can compete with AMD and possibly even take back the crown.

I don't think anyone is going to compete with NVidia with AI. Having exclusivity over CUDA is too big of an advantage. In low cost GPU maybe Intel can compete. I don't know if that's a great business.

If they go foundry, they can probably be a second source supplier for the industry.

There is a future for the company but they have to have a clear vision, that vision cannot be IDM 2.0.
 
To me it's clear that the IDM model is broken. Intel needs to decide if it wants to be a fabless company or a foundry. If they go fabless, I think they can compete with AMD and possibly even take back the crown.

I don't think anyone is going to compete with NVidia with AI. Having exclusivity over CUDA is too big of an advantage. In low cost GPU maybe Intel can compete. I don't know if that's a great business.

If they go foundry, they can probably be a second source supplier for the industry.

There is a future for the company but they have to have a clear vision, that vision cannot be IDM 2.0.

The subsidies from the Chips and Science Act can lead Intel into bigger trouble. It's because the Chips Act requires the recipient to pay for the majority of the new fab with their own money. For a $20 billion fab, Intel needs to come out at least $14 ~ $16 billion cash, after local and federal subsidies, to build the fab. The more fabs Intel is building, the bigger short term and long term financial burden Intel needs to face. But Intel's shrinking revenue and decreasing free cash flow from operations will not help the new Intel fabs or expansions in Arizona, Ireland, Ohio, and Germany to be financially sustainable. IFS may provide some help but it's too small and too far away.
 
The subsidies from the Chips and Science Act can lead Intel into bigger trouble. It's because the Chips Act requires the recipient to pay for the majority of the new fab with their own money. For a $20 billion fab, Intel needs to come out at least $14 ~ $16 billion cash, after local and federal subsidies, to build the fab. The more fabs Intel is building, the bigger short term and long term financial burden Intel needs to face. But Intel's shrinking revenue and decreasing free cash flow from operations will not help the new Intel fabs or expansions in Arizona, Ireland, Ohio, and Germany to be financially sustainable. IFS may provide some help but it's too small and too far away.
Interesting take - the CHIPS act could incentivize the industry to significantly overbuild capacity so as to not miss out on subsidy dollars, but when all these fabs are built will the demand be there? If not they will turn into money burning furnaces.
 
Interesting take - the CHIPS act could incentivize the industry to significantly overbuild capacity so as to not miss out on subsidy dollars, but when all these fabs are built will the demand be there? If not they will turn into money burning furnaces.
The CHIPS Act is just a part of the problem. Due to China's stance regarding Taiwan, multiple countries are making deals to get fabs built within their borders. I know I'm not alone in having a gut feel that this building frenzy will end expensively, for pretty much everyone. Even TSMC, if Intel executes their process roadmap. Supplier diversification is a definite thing.
 
My thoughts on Intel, for what it’s worth
1) Process leadership didn’t buy INTC stock price that much, in hindsight
2) Graphics card competitiveness might have (and might still, eventually) buy INTC stock a 2-4x pop
3) TSMC business and INTC businesses remain, to this day, completely different. Intel is a consumer brand that is vertically integrated, while TSMC is a technical service business with vertical integration. Their integrations overlap a lot, that’s all.
4) Intel has GAA and Power Via innovations, but locked up in Mod 2 and 3 in Hillsboro, they need to build out HVM capa to capitalize on those. At the same time as they are increasingly capital starved.
5) Intel costs are too high. We know a transformation is coming that will resolve this. Give it time.
 
My thoughts on Intel, for what it’s worth
1) Process leadership didn’t buy INTC stock price that much, in hindsight
2) Graphics card competitiveness might have (and might still, eventually) buy INTC stock a 2-4x pop
3) TSMC business and INTC businesses remain, to this day, completely different. Intel is a consumer brand that is vertically integrated, while TSMC is a technical service business with vertical integration. Their integrations overlap a lot, that’s all.
4) Intel has GAA and Power Via innovations, but locked up in Mod 2 and 3 in Hillsboro, they need to build out HVM capa to capitalize on those. At the same time as they are increasingly capital starved.
5) Intel costs are too high. We know a transformation is coming that will resolve this. Give it time.
2) Which graphics card competitivness you mean?
 
Eliminate the dividend. Don't listen to shareholders (critics and short term losers). Be strong and keep moving forward and keep your stuff. Typically, the whole is worth more than the sum of parts. The US needs you and will pay.
 
Ben (or anyone). What about packaging (2.5D, etc)? How are they doing there? It didn't make your list. It seems that SIPs are underappreciated. It may be as important as EUV.

How about exotic memory. How is Intel doing there?

Will IFS offer shuttles (MPWs) to bring new customers in, or will they just work with huge customers (and hurt their future)?

Is their problem strategy or execution? I suspect the latter.
 
Ben (or anyone). What about packaging (2.5D, etc)? How are they doing there? It didn't make your list. It seems that SIPs are underappreciated. It may be as important as EUV.
I'm not a packaging guy, but it seems way ahead of Samsung and trading blows with TSMC.
How about exotic memory. How is Intel doing there?
They said MRAM and ReRAM are options for intel 16

Will IFS offer shuttles (MPWs) to bring new customers in, or will they just work with huge customers (and hurt their future)?
This is the RAMP C for DoD subcontractors. For more regular customers they have mentioned that they run regular MPWs. Heck it seems like they are almost always excited to mention new MPWs at every earnings call these days.

Is their problem strategy or execution? I suspect the latter.
A couple of years ago I would have said a bit of column A, and a whole lot of column B. Today I feel like strategy is either correct or at the very least in the right direction. Public indicators of process health indicate execution seems to be improving for the manufacturing side, but time will tell if the design side will also recover.
 
I'm not a packaging guy, but it seems way ahead of Samsung and trading blows with TSMC.

They said MRAM and ReRAM are options for intel 16


This is the RAMP C for DoD subcontractors. For more regular customers they have mentioned that they run regular MPWs. Heck it seems like they are almost always excited to mention new MPWs at every earnings call these days.


A couple of years ago I would have said a bit of column A, and a whole lot of column B. Today I feel like strategy is either correct or at the very least in the right direction. Public indicators of process health indicate execution seems to be improving for the manufacturing side, but time will tell if the design side will also recover.
Packaging ahead of Samsung and on par with TSMC... I figured that. They have been at that for awhile. Doesn't that make investor's happy?

MRAM & ReRAM... That's huge! Doesn't that also make investor's happy?

MPWs... RAMP C? Any word on us lowly ASIC/IP companies getting access to MPWs?

Strategy vs Execution... My bad. I didn't specify design vs foundry. I like the strategy on all sides of the fence. I gave an opinion on the design side, not the foundry. I am still stunned that the industry can go below 65nm. It is difficult to fight physics. You EUV'ers are crazy. I hope it goes well.

Thanks!
 
Interesting take - the CHIPS act could incentivize the industry to significantly overbuild capacity so as to not miss out on subsidy dollars, but when all these fabs are built will the demand be there? If not they will turn into money burning furnaces.

From reading Commerce Secretary Raimondo's comments, US government is worried about it too.


 
To me it's clear that the IDM model is broken. Intel needs to decide if it wants to be a fabless company or a foundry. If they go fabless, I think they can compete with AMD and possibly even take back the crown.

I don't think anyone is going to compete with NVidia with AI. Having exclusivity over CUDA is too big of an advantage. In low cost GPU maybe Intel can compete. I don't know if that's a great business.

If they go foundry, they can probably be a second source supplier for the industry.

There is a future for the company but they have to have a clear vision, that vision cannot be IDM 2.0.

Intel's financial maneuver such as the financing deal with Brookfield may make splitting Intel into fabless company and foundry company more difficult. The time window to make Intel into two strong independent companies is shrinking quickly.
 
Intel's financial maneuver such as the financing deal with Brookfield may make splitting Intel into fabless company and foundry company more difficult. The time window to make Intel into two strong independent companies is shrinking quickly.
It's almost like they don't want to do that...
 
Amazingly, INTC is approaching $30/share again today. INTC is starting to remind me of TSLA. I don't consider either investible for me, but there are lots of days I look back and want to kick myself for not buying earlier when shares were 20% lower.
 
Amazingly, INTC is approaching $30/share again today. INTC is starting to remind me of TSLA. I don't consider either investible for me, but there are lots of days I look back and want to kick myself for not buying earlier when shares were 20% lower.
I have 5000 shares of Intel, so none of this surprises me. I'm surprised that people panic and can't see the clearer picture. But, it's how I make money in the market, so I don't complain about it. It's just so strange to me how people think though.
 
I have 5000 shares of Intel, so none of this surprises me. I'm surprised that people panic and can't see the clearer picture. But, it's how I make money in the market, so I don't complain about it. It's just so strange to me how people think though.
It is not strange at all. Being a contrarian in the equity markets is a popular strategy. I made some significant money in INTC after Gelsinger was appointed CEO, because I knew a bunch of clueless pundits would say a bunch of supportive things, investors would follow, and there would be a Gelsinger "halo effect" on the stock. I didn't get out at the top, but close enough to it to make me smile.

I also worked at Intel for 12 years, and I was reasonably sure the halo effect was just a mirage. Too many mistakes in too many product lines, and it wasn't too difficult to see the cloud vendors working on their own chips reducing cloud datacenter demand, but several Intel CPU people went to Apple too, so it was a reasonable bet 8-10% of the client market was leaving x86. The 10nm process miss was unforeseeable, but it's public knowledge that Intel that refused to be Apple's foundry over ten years ago. In my mind, that move was the foundation of TSMC's rise to where it is today and the beginning of Intel's decline. IFS had better work out.
 
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I'm a long term bear on Intel, and have had a negative view of the company since 2018. Intel share price is much lower today than it was in 2018, in spite of the market being much higher, and I expect that the stock will be even lower another 5 years from now, short to medium term gyrations aside.

Over time it'll be increasingly difficult for Intel to compete. The company's moat is narrowing, the walls are crumbling, and economies of scale are now in reverse. Staying in the game requires very high levels of sustained investment since the ante is still increasing every year. The rest of the industry has responded by picking what they are good at (IP, CPU design, GPU, foundry) and focusing on being successful there, Intel with IDM 2.0 is spreading it's bets too thin.
 
It is not strange at all. Being a contrarian in the equity markets is a popular strategy. I made some significant money in INTC after Gelsinger was appointed CEO, because I knew a bunch of clueless pundits would say a bunch of supportive things, investors would follow, and there would be a Gelsinger "halo effect" on the stock. I didn't get out at the top, but close enough to it to make me smile.

I also worked at Intel for 12 years, and I was reasonably sure the halo effect was just a mirage. Too many mistakes in too many product lines, and it wasn't too difficult to see the cloud vendors working on their own chips reducing cloud datacenter demand, but several Intel CPU people went to Apple too, so it was a reasonable bet 8-10% of the client market was leaving x86. The 10nm process miss was unforeseeable, but it's public knowledge that Intel that refused to be Apple's foundry over ten years ago. In my mind, that move was the foundation of TSMC's rise to where it is today and the beginning of Intel's decline. IFS had better work out.
Intel under Krzanich was a disaster. I was very bearish on the stock. Now? The current valuations are so low, it's a no-brainer.

Intel's failure to move past 14nm was a big part of the decline too, not only because the process, but because they used an old architecture for too many years, which was also degraded by security mitigations. They had terrible leadership.

But, Intel in decline is far more expansive in what they do than TSMC, and has far more opportunities. They still have the best single-threaded performance in the world (maybe IBM mainframes do, not sure, but I doubt it), they finally are taking being a foundry serious, and they've done far better in GPUs than most expected given where they are in the process. Their I4 is manufacturing ready, and all other nodes on time, or ahead. They finally have a vision where they want to go. And they have so many advantages over companies like AMD, or TSMC, which can't cover the breadth of opportunities Intel has. At current valuations, the opportunities are so pronounced, it's difficult not to like the stock. And given their solid, if uneven, execution lately, they are doing far better than a few years ago.

Intel still commands over 80% of the desktop and mobile market, and that has been remaining stable or growing overall. Servers were a HUGE failure for Intel, and other companies were able to creep in. Ice Lake was horrid, and it replaced a horrid product. Sapphire Rapids is just bleh, Emerald Rapids a little better, but both will either slow or stop market share loss because they are not nearly as bad vis-a-vis competition, as their products were. Granite Rapids moving to I3 was a solid statement on how confident Intel is on that process working well. But, I also think Sierra Forest is a sleeper, and is going to be a really good competitor to ARM, and could be a significant entry for Intel into the server market.

Nothing is ever certain, but the gloom and doom to me is weak thinking, based on panic. The company has a huge market share in mobile and desktops, which is a growing market, overall. Servers have been bad for good reasons, but those reasons are less salient now. IFS has a lot of companies interested, and already is showing growth, despite not even having a proper leading edge node until I3. GPUs are doing better than expected. Nodes are on time or ahead. Yeah, it's a tough macro-economic market, and there is a glut of inventory, but those are transient problems. Their strengths, to me, are far more compelling. I guess we'll revisit this some time down the road, but this is easy money to me. But, I got in around 29 or so, overall (I got some at 35, some at 25, etc...), so I really haven't made any money on it yet. But, I'm really confident I will.
 
TSMC 2023 capex ~$30b just on foundry
Intel 2023 capex ~$20 split between all of Intel's divisions

Historically, TSMC is more efficient with it's capital as well, averaging low 20% ROIC over past decade, while Intel ROIC has averaged high teens.

If you look at fabless company financial statements (QCOM, NVDIA, AMD) they have all been more efficiently allocating capital than Intel in recent years.

You can argue that it's a turnaround play and that BK was a bad leader and that PG will fix the issues, but I think the issues are more structural.
 
TSMC 2023 capex ~$30b just on foundry
Intel 2023 capex ~$20 split between all of Intel's divisions

Historically, TSMC is more efficient with it's capital as well, averaging low 20% ROIC over past decade, while Intel ROIC has averaged high teens.

If you look at fabless company financial statements (QCOM, NVDIA, AMD) they have all been more efficiently allocating capital than Intel in recent years.

You can argue that it's a turnaround play and that BK was a bad leader and that PG will fix the issues, but I think the issues are more structural.
Well, that's part of what they are working against, a culture that got used to failing and made money hand over fist while doing so. They got sloppy, and learned to like it. It was kind of annoying at the time, because it seemed no matter how badly they did, they had crazy good earnings. Earnings are often a trailing indicator. I think some of those structural problems are being resolved, but they certainly don't change overnight. I think making Intel designs being treated as another customer (although I am sure that's not 100% true) by the fab is a good step.

TSMC is a one trick pony. It's good at that trick though, for sure. Intel has been better at it though, most of the time, and now is clearly moving in the right direction. Although, I really want to see what I4 products look like before calling it a success. And the rumor about Meteor Lake being mobile only leaves me wondering why. I4 is supposed to be a performance node, so why wouldn't they release a desktop part? Strange, right? So, there are some questions.

And given how good Intel products currently are, I don't see it as a failed company. People talk about the company like they were once good, but then fell apart, and are somehow trying to pick up the pieces. Did no one notice Tiger Lake? Alder Lake? Raptor Lake? This line of thinking was true a few years ago, with Intel stuck on 14nm for performance, and suffering along with Ice Lake as their 10nm product. Now? You can already see enormous progress not only in their current products, but also in their process tech being on time, or ahead.

It's antiquated thinking to believe the company is still broken and behind everyone else. As mentioned, earnings are a trailing edge indicator, and most of these problems were born a few years ago. And a few years ago, I was very down on this company. I see a lot more good now than I did. So does AMD after having a free run, then having their desktop/mobile group drop revenue by 51% while Intel's dropped in the low 30s. And Intel GPUs have almost the same market share as AMD's. There's a lot of good in there.
 
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