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Corruption, Ineptitude, China's Chip Failure

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
China's failure to develop a state-of-the-art chip industry failed due to corruption and ineptitude combined with a lack of controls and planning. Almost any time, there are large amounts of money, corruption, and inefficiency rules, just like US medical provides lower quality medical care at the world's highest prices. Any government project is hard to run for many see a bottomless pit of money, and having worked on many billion-dollar projects, the US is no exception, but better than most due to a truly free press combined with the greatest Constitution and Bill of Rights. In any dictatorship, fear rules, discouraging free thinking, which is the key to true progress. SemiWiki is but one example of this.

 

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
The CHIPs act is the US mimicking Chinese industrial policy
Excellent observation. Most times, when governments say they're here to help, guard your wallet, for they are experts and wasting and spending money. Biden has set and fanned the fires of inflation that hurt the poor more than any other group, and he claims to help them. The more government gets involved in an area, the worst it gets. US medical is a prime example, some of the lowest quality at the world's highest cost. I don't know any government official that could be considered an expert in the semiconductor sector. The government has become a money addict piling on debt and even dealing cocaine to finance wars in the Iran/Contra affair. I still think it is better to help proven winners like TSM and Samsung build US fabs than give the money to Intel, which had the lead and blew it. I would be interested to hear the logic of giving Intel the taxpayers dollars without demanding equity or loan payments in return. any thoughts or comments on this appreciated.
 

Jozo035

Member
Carefully, You sounds like Trump fan. It starts with low taxes(gov spending) and canceling of corporate welfare (tax exemptions or direct payments) and suddenly you will find Your name on list of most wanted criminals...

Intel doubled its capacity during previous administrative without taxpayers money. So why so much money now. What will they do with all that free capacity.

Because Intel is now buying capacity at TSMC.

 

Daniel Nenni

Admin
Staff member
The CHIPs Act has raised the visibility of how important semiconductors are to the world. The actual money that goes to the semiconductor companies is frosting on the cake. It was incredible seeing semiconductor CEOs on the White House lawn hanging with the political elite. They now know how important we are and they had better show respect. Clearly we have the power to fuel or starve the economy, just like oil! FEAR US!!!!!!!
 

Daniel Nenni

Admin
Staff member
Carefully, You sounds like Trump fan. It starts with low taxes(gov spending) and canceling of corporate welfare (tax exemptions or direct payments) and suddenly you will find Your name on list of most wanted criminals...
Intel doubled its capacity during previous administrative without taxpayers money. So why so much money now. What will they do with all that free capacity.
Because Intel is now buying capacity at TSMC.

From what I have heard inside Intel Ann Kelleher is kicking ass. Expect good things to come from her group, absolutely.
 

lilo777

Active member
China's failure to develop a state-of-the-art chip industry failed due to corruption and ineptitude combined with a lack of controls and planning. Almost any time, there are large amounts of money, corruption, and inefficiency rules, just like US medical provides lower quality medical care at the world's highest prices. Any government project is hard to run for many see a bottomless pit of money, and having worked on many billion-dollar projects, the US is no exception, but better than most due to a truly free press combined with the greatest Constitution and Bill of Rights. In any dictatorship, fear rules, discouraging free thinking, which is the key to true progress. SemiWiki is but one example of this.

I would imagine that "corruption" and "ineptitude" in China can't be limited to semiconductor industry. Yet look at the number of industries (including hi-tech) where China is handily beating all other countries. Something in your claim doesn't add up.
 

tooLongInEDA

Active member
I would imagine that "corruption" and "ineptitude" in China can't be limited to semiconductor industry. Yet look at the number of industries (including hi-tech) where China is handily beating all other countries. Something in your claim doesn't add up.
Can you run a quick list by me of all these industries where China is genuinely world leading ?
 

lilo777

Active member
Can you run a quick list by me of all these industries where China is genuinely world leading ?
Solar panels, nuclear power plants, EV batteries, EV vehicle production, AI hardware and software, memory production, ship building, smart phones (design and production), wireless technologies (5G), space exploration, car manufacturing, computer production, super computers. China is leading in these and probably some other fields (in some cases by huge margins).
 

tooLongInEDA

Active member
Solar panels, nuclear power plants, EV batteries, EV vehicle production, AI hardware and software, memory production, ship building, smart phones (design and production), wireless technologies (5G), space exploration, car manufacturing, computer production, super computers. China is leading in these and probably some other fields (in some cases by huge margins).
I'm not expert in most of these, but I'm far from certain that China has technological leadership in all of these (and I assume technological leadership is really what we're talking about here - highest volume manufacturing is important, but a separate domain). What I want to know is places where China has a current and - this is really important - sustainable competitive edge in the core technologies. I am yet to be persuaded that if you stack up this list for the US and China that we will find the US lagging overall. But happy to be re-educated as I admit my knowledge is not current of comprehensive.

One comment about 5G in China - I've seen it reported that the early 5G rollout in China has simply resulted in greatly increasing the average monthly mobile phone bill for no real customer benefit. Rolling out the latest and greatest before the market can support it may not be the smart thing to do.
 

blueone

Active member
Solar panels, nuclear power plants, EV batteries, EV vehicle production, AI hardware and software, memory production, ship building, smart phones (design and production), wireless technologies (5G), space exploration, car manufacturing, computer production, super computers. China is leading in these and probably some other fields (in some cases by huge margins).
Solar panels - China, far and away
Nuclear Power Plants - Russia, France is up there
EV Batteries - China
EV vehicle production - China, by a lot
AI SW & HW - Hmmm... China has had some impressive results, but so has the US and Israel
Memory production - Korea
Ship building - definitely Korea
Smart phones - China for mechanical assembly, the US and Korea for design
5G - Unclear, though IP in the standards group points to China. Which is a bit amusing, considering China's policies regarding other country's IP
Space exploration - US, for decades, though US manned programs are becoming less important (Which I agree with. Human space travel is silly.)
Car manufacturing - by what measure? In production volume, China
Supercomputers - China is arguably a leader, though only for internal use

So 5/12, 6/12 if we count the auto industry by volume. Did I get anything woefully incorrect?
 

hist78

Well-known member
Solar panels - China, far and away
Nuclear Power Plants - Russia, France is up there
EV Batteries - China
EV vehicle production - China, by a lot
AI SW & HW - Hmmm... China has had some impressive results, but so has the US and Israel
Memory production - Korea
Ship building - definitely Korea
Smart phones - China for mechanical assembly, the US and Korea for design
5G - Unclear, though IP in the standards group points to China. Which is a bit amusing, considering China's policies regarding other country's IP
Space exploration - US, for decades, though US manned programs are becoming less important (Which I agree with. Human space travel is silly.)
Car manufacturing - by what measure? In production volume, China
Supercomputers - China is arguably a leader, though only for internal use

So 5/12, 6/12 if we count the auto industry by volume. Did I get anything woefully incorrect?

At this Semiwiki forum, don't forget that mainland China is far behind Taiwan, US, Japan, and Korea in manufacturing, machine, EDA, design, and materials.
 

blueone

Active member
At this Semiwiki forum, don't forget that mainland China is far behind Taiwan, US, and Korea in manufacturing, machine, EDA, design, and materials.
Agreed. I was just answering lilo777's list. I'm not smart enough or ambitious enough to do an exhaustive list myself. :)
 

lilo777

Active member
At this Semiwiki forum, don't forget that mainland China is far behind Taiwan, US, Japan, and Korea in manufacturing, machine, EDA, design, and materials.
At this forum, are we to assume that Chinese corruption impedes only semiconductor industry? Or, perhaps, we should be aware that US are banning equipment manufacturers from supplying advanced equipment to China which is likely much more important reason for China lagging behind? All other industries were mentioned to make a point that corruption on its own does not necessarily prevents China from making great progress in hi-tech.
 

blueone

Active member
At this forum, are we to assume that Chinese corruption impedes only semiconductor industry? Or, perhaps, we should be aware that US are banning equipment manufacturers from supplying advanced equipment to China which is likely much more important reason for China lagging behind? All other industries were mentioned to make a point that corruption on its own does not necessarily prevents China from making great progress in hi-tech.
FWIW, I was not responding to Mr. Hanson's original post, but to your list. I don't agree with his premise.
 

tonyget

Active member
How much of China's high tech was stolen? Answer, a lot.

From historical record,we know that silk production technique was one of the closely guarded secret by Chinese imperial court for thousands of years. Until the Byzantines send two spy monks stole the secret from China
 

Jozo035

Member
From historical record,we know that silk production technique was one of the closely guarded secret by Chinese imperial court for thousands of years. Until the Byzantines send two spy monks stole the secret from China
Is it real or just another story to boost propaganda of chinese racial superiority? Just think about it for a second. Other regions where different resources were abundant and people had different needs (weather climate) might be simply aiming for development in different areas (wool?).

Or metal casting (also often used). Where You should add that forging generally produces metal with far superior properties, which might be reason why rest of world used forged weapons and tools.

You know these are history twists often done by comunist party (and other dictatorships) but they are often questionable.
 

Jozo035

Member
Solar panels - China, far and away
Nuclear Power Plants - Russia, France is up there
EV Batteries - China
EV vehicle production - China, by a lot
AI SW & HW - Hmmm... China has had some impressive results, but so has the US and Israel
Memory production - Korea
Ship building - definitely Korea
Smart phones - China for mechanical assembly, the US and Korea for design
5G - Unclear, though IP in the standards group points to China. Which is a bit amusing, considering China's policies regarding other country's IP
Space exploration - US, for decades, though US manned programs are becoming less important (Which I agree with. Human space travel is silly.)
Car manufacturing - by what measure? In production volume, China
Supercomputers - China is arguably a leader, though only for internal use

So 5/12, 6/12 if we count the auto industry by volume. Did I get anything woefully incorrect?
Smart phones - I heard that production in china is no longer profitable so companies are moving to other countries. Mostly to India, Vietnam... Even Xiaomi is leaving...
 

tonyget

Active member
Is it real or just another story to boost propaganda of chinese racial superiority? Just think about it for a second. Other regions where different resources were abundant and people had different needs (weather climate) might be simply aiming for development in different areas (wool?).

Or metal casting (also often used). Where You should add that forging generally produces metal with far superior properties, which might be reason why rest of world used forged weapons and tools.

You know these are history twists often done by comunist party (and other dictatorships) but they are often questionable.

It is a well known historical event,all western history scholars acknowledge it.



 
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