Array
(
    [content] => 
    [params] => Array
        (
            [0] => /forum/index.php?threads/china-is-waging-full-scale-economic-technological-war-on-usa.12856/
        )

    [addOns] => Array
        (
            [DL6/MLTP] => 13
            [Hampel/JobRunner] => 1050070
            [SV/ChangePostDate] => 2010200
            [SemiWiki/Newsletter] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/WPMenu] => 1000010
            [SemiWiki/XPressExtend] => 1000010
            [ThemeHouse/XLink] => 1000670
            [ThemeHouse/XPress] => 1010394
            [XF] => 2011170
            [XFI] => 1030270
        )

    [wordpress] => /var/www/html
)

China is Waging Full Scale Economic/Technological War on USA

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
Barrons, one of the very top economic publications has released an article how China is waging a full scale economic war on the US by stealing as much IP as possible, by a multi channel attack covering everything from sending students here, to front companies whose real purpose is to acquire information on the cheap through deception or outright theft to outright hacking through numerous channels. Their strategy also involves abusing partnerships, educational institutions, employment and business alliances in a number of ways. It also involves abusing our court system by suing and then using the discovery process to get at a technology. This is a full scale economic war and the rest of the world better wake up. It also involves the theft of data, which is now the new gold. Europe has recently sanctioned China over their actions in these areas. It's time to wake up and realize this is not competition, but economic warfare. We must fully realize as long as China continues to benefit, they will only get more brazen. China is a smart, powerful country and I wish they would realize collaboration would be far more profitable and speed progress even more, for working together is far more efficient, transparency is key. In wars, everyone looses something, even the victor. Wisdom on all sides will be required to turn this from a full scale war, to an economic/technological revolution that benefits not only the rich and powerful nations, but the poorest. Comments, thoughts and additions, solicited and welcome.

 
Last edited:

whambly#39

New member
For those that are interested read "Stealth War" by retired General Robert Spalding. US government and companies have left the door wide open for too long in the pursuit of Chinese business. Not all business is good business,
 

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
If China has these rankings, why would they send a single scientist, student or researcher to the US? Could you provide a well known, respected source. If this is true, when will they pull their students, researchers out of all western and other eastern countries and stop attending technical conferences outside of China? Barrons is a highly respected source and known for their accuracy. Please state specific counters to their articles for the past months, if this is true Barrons would like to hear about them. Exactly what Science Journal are you referring to. I read highly respected, well known sources with track records extending back decades. Much of this has been well covered in SemiWiki by the people that know. Also please give specific court cases outside of China please. Many cases have been filed against Chinese companies in Alameda and Santa Clara counties that were public and open for all to see.
 
Last edited:

Godfree Roberts

New member
If China has these rankings, why would they send a single scientist, student or researcher to the US? Could you provide a well known, respected source. If this is true, when will they pull their students, researchers out of all western and other eastern countries and stop attending technical conferences outside of China? Barrons is a highly respected source and known for their accuracy. Please state specific counters to their articles for the past months, if this is true Barrons would like to hear about them. Exactly what Science Journal are you referring to. I read highly respected, well known sources with track records extending back decades. Much of this has been well covered in SemiWiki by the people that know. Also please give specific court cases outside of China please. Many cases have been filed against Chinese companies in Alameda and Santa Clara counties that were public and open for all to see.
China's current R&D lead does not imply that Chinese scientists know everything.

They can learn from us and we from them.

They are in the US both to take and to give, which is why half of all 'American' peer-reviewed STEM papers have at least one Chinese co-author.

If Chinese scientists leave the US and return to China, the US will fall further behind. That's how the stats break.
 

Daniel Nenni

Admin
Staff member
No need to pull the race card here. The truth of the matter is, semiconductor IP has been walking out the doors since the traitorous 8 founding of Fairchild Semiconductor. If not, we wouldn't have the semiconductors we have today, absolutely.
 

hist78

Member
Barrons is making it up. There is zero evidence that China has ever stolen significant IP from America or

anywhere else.

View attachment 200
By the way, I don't understand the relationship between the number of published academic paper and the number of the IP theft. You can have 1000 honest and hard working professors doing great research but at the same time there are hundreds of lazy and unethical businesses stealing IP from other countries.

The link below is a 2019 article:
1 in 5 corporations say China has stolen their IP within the last year: CNBC CFO survey

From my personal experience, the IP theft situation is especially hard on small to medium sized businesses because they don't have the resource to fight back. They are the victim but they can't do much to claim their rights under the current PRC's legal and political system.

I know three companies personally who are the victims of this shady system.
 

whambly#39

New member
No need to pull the race card here. The truth of the matter is, semiconductor IP has been walking out the doors since the traitorous 8 founding of Fairchild Semiconductor. If not, we wouldn't have the semiconductors we have today, absolutely.
I don't see anyone pulling out a race card here. The issue is not the Chinese people but the Chinese government, the CCP. Just examine the list of requirements a non-Chinese company must go through just to do business in China. Virtually none of these requirements are to protect the Chinese people but to tightly control and infiltrate the corporate knowledge base.
 

count

Active member
It's well known that IP theft is part of business strategy for many Chinese companies, and the Chinese government is encouraging it. The question is, is this part of a broader campaign of "economic war"? I'm not really sure.
 

prime007

Member
What the China is now doing is downright scary. It actively steals technology (as hist78 mentioned, https://www.wired.com/story/chinese-hackers-taiwan-semiconductor-industry-skeleton-key/ , https://www.sammobile.com/news/samsung-china-oled-theft-arrests-charges), its targeting OUR elections (https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-53702872), rides roughshod over its own citizens (https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/o...-rights-abuses-hong-kong-200408083726463.html), and its irresponsible handling (https://www.modernhealthcare.com/sa...ed-releasing-coronavirus-info-frustrating-who) of COVID-19 is partially responsible for the more than 732,000 deaths worldwide. But sadly....most of us know that this really is just the tip of the iceberg.

The US and its allies need to recognize that:
1. China is more our competitor and less of a "friend". Is there an "economic war"?! China is already waging it against us.
2. China is seeking to dominate the technology sector through any means necessary. We can't let this happen.
3. There needs to be a strong system of enforcement to ensure China follows through on its international agreements/laws.
4. China (the CCP) is a growing threat

Ideally, we force China to become a "good responsible world actor". But realistically, we need to find ways to contain/counteract their power and influence.

NOTE: I'm Chinese-American....so no, I don't hate Asians (or specifically Chinese). But I do recognize the CCP's bad and irresponsible behavior.
 

Arthur Hanson

Well-known member
Barrons is making it up. There is zero evidence that China has ever stolen significant IP from America or

anywhere else.

View attachment 200
Barrons is among the most respected publications with a stellar track record, please back up you very, very serious accusations that cross the line into libel. Barrons has access to some of the very top and very best people in the tech sector world wide and has for years. All this is well documented by direct articles and interviews with some of the very top people world wide in the many, not just tech, sectors they cover. Give us your sources.
 

prime007

Member
According an article from Yahoo! Taiwan (Please use Google Translate or Microsoft Translator to translate to English), none of the ex-TSM engineers and managers that have poached had a complete picture of TSMC's trade secrets. Apparently, only people who are vice-president level or above have complete access to TSMC's trade secrets. Further, TSMC requires its suppliers of production equipment not to sell wafer equipment that is "customized by TSMC" to mainland China.

While visiting Taiwan a few years back...I was made aware that TSMC also had precautions to guard against further leaks to Samsung. I imagine the Mong-Song Liang episode (ex-senior directory of R&D at TSMC jumping to Samsung) might have caused TSMC to be more careful. Ironically now that Mong-Song Liang jumped to SMIC, it appears Samsung may also have its trade secrets exposed. This BusinessKorea article speculates that this will eventually result in lost business to SMIC.
 

Daniel Nenni

Admin
Staff member
Having worked with TSMC, UMC, SMIC, and Samsung in the past I seriously doubt TSMC will lose business outside China to SMIC. I also do not believe that a TSMC VP knows all secrets in his memory required to be successful at leading edge nodes. Those processes are much to complicated. Samsung, UMC, and SMIC have been poaching people from TSMC for years yet TSMC is today in the strongest position they have ever been, absolutely.

Did you see the Intel SuperFin announcement? At least Intel does not copy TSMC.

According an article from Yahoo! Taiwan (Please use Google Translate or Microsoft Translator to translate to English), none of the ex-TSM engineers and managers that have poached had a complete picture of TSMC's trade secrets. Apparently, only people who are vice-president level or above have complete access to TSMC's trade secrets. Further, TSMC requires its suppliers of production equipment not to sell wafer equipment that is "customized by TSMC" to mainland China.

While visiting Taiwan a few years back...I was made aware that TSMC also had precautions to guard against further leaks to Samsung. I imagine the Mong-Song Liang episode (ex-senior directory of R&D at TSMC jumping to Samsung) might have caused TSMC to be more careful. Ironically now that Mong-Song Liang jumped to SMIC, it appears Samsung may also have its trade secrets exposed. This BusinessKorea article speculates that this will eventually result in lost business to SMIC.
 

prime007

Member
Quick note...the BusinessKorea article was written from an Korean prospective. It speculated that Samsung and other "top foundries" would probably lose some business to SMIC.

BusinessKorea article snippet...
Another reason why SMIC is optimistic about growth is the growing market for field programmable arrays (FPGAs) that can be produced on a 10-nanometer process. This means that Samsung Electronics' foundry business could lose some of its market for 10-nano products to SMIC.

"Although some experts say that Samsung's foundry business may win an order for Intel's CPUs, Intel's outsourcing of CPUs other than telecommunication chips or GPUs will not take place soon," said an official of a semiconductor industry. "There is a high possibility that SMIC will quickly upgrade its technology and take some of market shares of top foundry companies including Samsung Electronics."
 
Last edited:

prime007

Member
Thanks Denni! No, I missed the SuperFin announcement....it sounds quite intriguing. SuperFin (renamed from 10+) is essentially a full node shrink in performance with an enhanced version in the pipeline? Sounds like great news for Intel!

Speaking of news...Samsung also announced they have 3D stacking tech on their 7nm EUV chips (Source: https://www.zdnet.com/article/samsung-applies-3d-stacking-tech-on-7nm-euv-chips/).

I must say that the semiconductor industry can be as dramatic as it is important!
 
Top