Lower standards for A17 Pro could be behind iPhone 15 Pro thermal throttling issues
The iPhone 15 Pro gets uncharacteristically warm and now we know why.
www.phonearena.com
Apple A17 chip needs cooling off?
- Thread starter Tanj
- Start date
www.phonearena.com
She got it mostly right by quoting others who know but what does this mean:
"The A17 Pro has been manufactured by TSMC using the 3nm process. It's the biggest manufacturing process jump since 2020's 5nm tech but performance gains aren't particularly impressive, with Apple saying that the CPU is 10 percent faster and the GPU is 20 percent faster."
The A16 is N4. We stopped jumping at 20nm. Now we incrementally step from one process to another. 20-16-12-10-7-6-5-4-3. There are no more jumps. TSMC N3 was delayed 6 months due to yield. Hopefully that was fixed but maybe not. I will ask around at the TSMC OIP tomorrow. If N3 has power problems the ecosystem will know, absolutely.
"The A17 Pro has been manufactured by TSMC using the 3nm process. It's the biggest manufacturing process jump since 2020's 5nm tech but performance gains aren't particularly impressive, with Apple saying that the CPU is 10 percent faster and the GPU is 20 percent faster."
The A16 is N4. We stopped jumping at 20nm. Now we incrementally step from one process to another. 20-16-12-10-7-6-5-4-3. There are no more jumps. TSMC N3 was delayed 6 months due to yield. Hopefully that was fixed but maybe not. I will ask around at the TSMC OIP tomorrow. If N3 has power problems the ecosystem will know, absolutely.
Seems to me TSMC never jumped. Intel had the big jump model and copy exact across multiple foundries with all designs queued up for the Tick they depended upon. TSMC seems to have proceeded one fab at a time, willing to pick which improvements were ready on the schedule they needed for capacity, and also building multiple different processes due to the multiple customers they have.
It has been a strength of them enabling resiliency - except for 2009 no technical failure/delay would stop their train - and improving customer alignment.
Never say never. TSMC 40nm to 28nm was a decent jump with HKMG. TSMC did mid node shrinks for high volume customers but the main stream nodes were jumps compared to what we have today. There have been no real jumps since Apple came aboard in the FinFET era.
Hard disagree with you Dan. The amount of work that went into N3 is orders of magnitude greater than a 2% optical shrink with slight FEOL or BEOL enhancements of N4P. Even compared to the more substantial optical shrinks of the planar era N3 is a far bigger change than say 65nm>60nm. Same deal with 20nm>16FF>10FF>N7>N5. All of these were huge jumps and changed the underlying everything (16FF being excluded since the only innovations were on the FEOL) rather than refinements to the base/filling out the old node with extra std cells and devices.
Now in TSMC's defence the common platform alliance folks were all melting down and dropping out of the leading edge at HKMG and at finFET (unless you are samsung then your finfet works fine). And at 10"nm" class nodes both intel and Samsung had comparable issues. But I wouldn't call TSMC's post 40nm era "flawless". And nobody can take away the relentless cadence from 16FF>10FF>N7 in 4 years and a graceful dive into EUV with N5 2 years after that. That was simply excellent.
Besides 14nm and 10nm I would disagree. Intel was just doing ~2x density every 2 years and a new transistor arch every 4 years. That wasn't all that different from what the rest of the world was doing. The only difference was that the new archs were debuting 3+ years ahead of the rest of the world adopting them, the density was like 1-2 years ahead, and finally there weren't any major delays to throw off Tick-Tock.
My understanding was 28nm HKMG and 16FF were late. N3 is also undeniably 3-12 months late (even if TSMC wants to claim it is on time). My understanding was also that DDs on 10FF were suboptimal at launch (seems like it was on time at least given A9 was 2015 and A11 was 2017).
Now in TSMC's defence the common platform alliance folks were all melting down and dropping out of the leading edge at HKMG and at finFET (unless you are samsung then your finfet works fine). And at 10"nm" class nodes both intel and Samsung had comparable issues. But I wouldn't call TSMC's post 40nm era "flawless". And nobody can take away the relentless cadence from 16FF>10FF>N7 in 4 years and a graceful dive into EUV with N5 2 years after that. That was simply excellent.
I’m not sure why this is really news..
For 10 years phones can be made to throttle by running high intensity games, as SoC makers have long since pushed the boundaries for sustained loads vs available cooling.
First chips on new process nodes haven’t had spectacular gains in a long time (28nm? 45nm?)
No one has really deeply probed battery life at real world loads, though even then it’s hard to tell how much is process vs. chip uarch design.
For 10 years phones can be made to throttle by running high intensity games, as SoC makers have long since pushed the boundaries for sustained loads vs available cooling.
First chips on new process nodes haven’t had spectacular gains in a long time (28nm? 45nm?)
No one has really deeply probed battery life at real world loads, though even then it’s hard to tell how much is process vs. chip uarch design.
When exactly did Apple pass Intel?
Intel CEO: Our Future CPUs Will Rival Apple Silicon
Intel CEO: Our Future CPUs Will Rival Apple Silicon
Seems even iPhone 12 also had reports of "overheating" https://www.esrgear.com/blog/why-do-iphone-12-get-hot/ so I'm wondering also if this is really anything new. Maybe there are always these reports for each iPhone generation.
While the issue of overheating is not new to iPhones generally, three out of five persons would have their iPhone 12 getting overheated at least, once a week.
While the issue of overheating is not new to iPhones generally, three out of five persons would have their iPhone 12 getting overheated at least, once a week.
Depends on the metric.
Single thread perf? Intel never lost the lead
# of Transistors on the main SoC? M1/M2 are throwing a lot more silicon at the problem than Intel in equivalent segments
Perf/watt (with reasonable overall performance)? Probably Apple’s second chip on TSMC N7, maybe before
It is strange wording from Pat..
The latest on the iPhone 15 Pro overheating problem. It's just a software bug, ya know. 
www.cnet.com
A Fix Is Here: Apple Resolves iPhone 15 Pro Overheating Issues in Latest iOS 17 Update
Apple confirmed that the iPhone 15 Pro overheating is due to an iOS 17 bug, not a design flaw.
www.cnet.com
The latest on the iPhone 15 Pro overheating problem. It's just a software bug, ya know.
A Fix Is Here: Apple Resolves iPhone 15 Pro Overheating Issues in Latest iOS 17 Update
Apple confirmed that the iPhone 15 Pro overheating is due to an iOS 17 bug, not a design flaw.
I'm sure they can find a software fix but there were design decisions/trade-offs made that got them where they are today and there is no fixing that until the next spin. I use my iPhone 14 for navigation and weather while I sail and it gets hot. It all depends on what you have running. Let's see how this plays out.
I've experienced this unexpected heating with my iPhone 14 Pro if I accidentally engage video through the camera, even if I don't record. It's more technically interesting than annoying. I don't remember behavior like that on any previous iPhone I've owned, and usually the 14 Pro runs completely cool. Of course, I'm old and old-fashioned, and I don't take selfie videos of myself regularly like the kids do at the gym. (What's up with that?)
This unexpected heating doesn't worry me all. Several products from multiple manufacturers we own have temperature control anomalies. A Samsung Blue-Ray player I used to own. Every Dell laptop I've used comes to mind. I think the press attention on the iPhone is mostly clickbait. The Wall Street Journal lately has been giving Apple a lot of negative press on this topic, and in their overblown reporting of Apple's so far unsuccessful attempt at producing a 5G modem internally (based on the team and IP they acquired from Intel).
CPUs with cores based on microcode engines have to be very carefully programmed to keep the CPU dies from getting into catastrophic overheat. I imagine testing new microcode is an interesting project.
My 2018 iMac Mini with an Intel i7 CPU runs hot sometimes, though it's usually not even warm. Often it's when viewing YouTube videos, and for some reason that's completely non-intuitive it's worse with Chrome than Safari. And I don't mean warm, I mean the case gets hot to the touch, and the fan doesn't engage. I know the fan works because sometimes the fan engages, especially during a MacOS upgrade. (I watch a lot of YouTube videos because I like to service cars myself, and we've owned multiple midengine Porsches, which have some of the most annoying service procedures I've ever experienced. The procedure for changing the engine air filters on a 718 Boxster, for example, is ridiculous. But I digress.)
Same here, very big Youtube fan. The battery in my 911 died and my front hood would not open since it is electric and that is where the battery is. I looked on Youtube and this guy hooked jumper cables to the fuse box next to the driver's left foot to jump the hatch open. It was a sketchy hack so I called the Porsche dealer and they said yes, that is the only way to do it. It worked but it is a serious design flaw. Great car though, 2010 911 Cabriolet with a PDK transmission. Never a bad day in a cabriolet!
(Reuters) - Apple on Saturday said it has identified a few issues which can cause new iPhones to run warmer than expected, including a bug in the iOS 17 software which will be fixed in an upcoming update.
After complaints that the new phones are getting very warm, Apple has said that the device may feel warmer in the first few days "after setting up or restoring the device because of increased background activity."
"Another issue involves some recent updates to third-party apps that are causing them to overload the system," Apple said, adding that it is working with app developers on fixes that are in the process of being rolled out.
The third-party apps causing the issue include game Asphalt 9; Meta's Instagram; and Uber, according to the company. Instagram already fixed the issue with its app on Sept. 27.
The upcoming iOS 17 bug fix will not reduce performance to address the iPhone's temperature.
The Cupertino, California-headquartered company said that the iPhone 15 Pro and Pro Max do not suffer from overheating due to the design, rather the new titanium shells result in improved heat dissipation compared to prior stainless steel models.
Apple also said the issue is not a safety or injury risk, and will not impact the phone's long-term performance.
www.yahoo.com
After complaints that the new phones are getting very warm, Apple has said that the device may feel warmer in the first few days "after setting up or restoring the device because of increased background activity."
"Another issue involves some recent updates to third-party apps that are causing them to overload the system," Apple said, adding that it is working with app developers on fixes that are in the process of being rolled out.
The third-party apps causing the issue include game Asphalt 9; Meta's Instagram; and Uber, according to the company. Instagram already fixed the issue with its app on Sept. 27.
The upcoming iOS 17 bug fix will not reduce performance to address the iPhone's temperature.
The Cupertino, California-headquartered company said that the iPhone 15 Pro and Pro Max do not suffer from overheating due to the design, rather the new titanium shells result in improved heat dissipation compared to prior stainless steel models.
Apple also said the issue is not a safety or injury risk, and will not impact the phone's long-term performance.
Apple identifies issues causing overheating in the iPhone 15
Apple on Saturday said it has identified a few issues which can cause new iPhones to run warmer than expected, including a bug in the iOS 17 software which will be fixed in an upcoming update. After complaints that the new phones are getting very warm, Apple has said that the device may feel...
It looks like Apple is simply trying to deflect the blame. The apps will use as much resources as they need and as the OS/processor will give them. The apps are not supposed to monitor phone temps and throttle themselves. There are reports from BMW owners that Apple Pay in their iPhone 15 Pros stopped working after charging on the car's wireless charger. It looks like the phones get overheated and fry NFC chip. It'll be difficcult to blame "unoptimized" apps for this one.(Reuters) - Apple on Saturday said it has identified a few issues which can cause new iPhones to run warmer than expected, including a bug in the iOS 17 software which will be fixed in an upcoming update.
After complaints that the new phones are getting very warm, Apple has said that the device may feel warmer in the first few days "after setting up or restoring the device because of increased background activity."
"Another issue involves some recent updates to third-party apps that are causing them to overload the system," Apple said, adding that it is working with app developers on fixes that are in the process of being rolled out.
The third-party apps causing the issue include game Asphalt 9; Meta's Instagram; and Uber, according to the company. Instagram already fixed the issue with its app on Sept. 27.
The upcoming iOS 17 bug fix will not reduce performance to address the iPhone's temperature.
The Cupertino, California-headquartered company said that the iPhone 15 Pro and Pro Max do not suffer from overheating due to the design, rather the new titanium shells result in improved heat dissipation compared to prior stainless steel models.
Apple also said the issue is not a safety or injury risk, and will not impact the phone's long-term performance.
Apple identifies issues causing overheating in the iPhone 15
Apple on Saturday said it has identified a few issues which can cause new iPhones to run warmer than expected, including a bug in the iOS 17 software which will be fixed in an upcoming update. After complaints that the new phones are getting very warm, Apple has said that the device may feel...
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