Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger visited Samsung in Korea

[hist78]

I'm wondering what kinds of collaborations can be? In terms of memory, I thought Micron and SK Hynix have more collaborations with Intel already.

The Korea Herald: Samsung, Intel chiefs meet in Seoul for chip collaboration.

Samsung, Intel chiefs meet in Seoul for chip collaboration

Samsung Electronics Vice Chairman and de facto leader Lee Jae-yong met Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger, the company said Monday, raising expectations over a possible co

www.koreaherald.com

 

[Portland]

#2 and #3 cooperating to go after tsmc.

 

[Daniel Nenni]

From SA, the plot thickens.... What do you really think is going on here?

Santa Clara, California-based Intel (INTC) has a nascent foundry business, whereas Samsung (OTC:SSNLF) has an established business, making chips for a number of clients, including Qualcomm (QCOM), Nvidia (NVDA), IBM (IBM) and Samsung (OTC:SSNLF) itself.

In March, Nvidia Chief Executive Jensen Huang said the graphics giant would be interested in using Intel (INTC) as a foundry partner.

Taiwan Semiconductor (TSM) is the global leader in the foundry business, making chips for a number of clients, including Apple (AAPL), Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) and others.

 

[hist78]

It's a love and hate (not really) triangle.

Intel wants to replace Samsung as the #2 foundry. Samsung wants to beat TSMC to become the #1 foundry. Yet Intel needs TSMC, at least for the next 3 to 5 years, to avoid falling behind AMD and Nvidia. And Samsung needs TSMC fabless customers' chips to make smartphones, LED displays, TVs, refrigerators, medical devices, PCs, and 5G carrier network equipments.

There are several concerned citizens also like to step in and out to make statements about this love and hate relationship, such as Nvidia and Qualcomm.

For TSMC any customers, big or small, are good customers as long as they pay the bill.

Isn't it exciting to watch?

 

[Portland]

Intel's paying $180 million for a CEO to grovel to samsung.

 

[Daniel Nenni]

It's a love and hate (not really) triangle.
Intel wants to replace Samsung as the #2 foundry. Samsung wants to beat TSMC to become the #1 foundry. Yet Intel needs TSMC, at least for the next 3 to 5 years, to avoid falling behind AMD and Nvidia. And Samsung needs TSMC fabless customers' chips to make smartphones, LED displays, TVs, refrigerators, medical devices, PCs, and 5G carrier network equipment. There are several concerned citizens also like to step in and out to make statements about this love and hate relationship, such as Nvidia and Qualcomm.
For TSMC any customers, big or small, are good customers as long as they pay the bill. Isn't it exciting to watch?

An Intel Samsung relationship sounds good to me. I see so many possibilities on the foundry and IDM side. Maybe Samsung is better suited for the whole coopetition thing Pat Gelsinger is high on. Samsung is a much more brute force type of company which is in stark contrast to TSMC's finesse when it comes to yield, customers and partners. Pat and Intel will fit somewhere in between, my opinion. Pat may just be covering bases here but it is definitely exciting to watch. Pat is definitely a wild card in the semiconductor industry, replacing Hock Tan who is now a software wild card.

 

[blueone]

Taiwan Semiconductor (TSM) is the global leader in the foundry business, making chips for a number of clients, including Apple (AAPL), Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) and others.

Yeah, but Intel was the fabrication leader for a long time, well within the memory of its current CEO, many senior executives, and multiple board members. TSMC was just everyone else's foundry. In Intel culture, TSMC fought its way up to be a leader, and that's an existence proof that Intel can successfully fight its way back. All it takes is time, money (from subsidies, if necessary), and the right leadership. That's all TSMC had, I'm guessing is the thinking. IMO, Intel's turn around playbook would be a lot less credible if China would stop threatening Taiwan. No western nation or large electronics company seems willing to bet that China is just posturing. You know, the way South Korea seems so confident that North Korea will never attack. We all know that Intel is likely to get industry and multi-national support it would not get otherwise, because of China. I'm not smart enough to know if that support will make the difference, but it's certainly a big X-factor.

 

[hist78]

Yeah, but Intel was the fabrication leader for a long time, well within the memory of its current CEO, many senior executives, and multiple board members. TSMC was just everyone else's foundry. In Intel culture, TSMC fought its way up to be a leader, and that's an existence proof that Intel can successfully fight its way back. All it takes is time, money (from subsidies, if necessary), and the right leadership. That's all TSMC had, I'm guessing is the thinking. IMO, Intel's turn around playbook would be a lot less credible if China would stop threatening Taiwan. No western nation or large electronics company seems willing to bet that China is just posturing. You know, the way South Korea seems so confident that North Korea will never attack. We all know that Intel is likely to get industry and multi-national support it would not get otherwise, because of China. I'm not smart enough to know if that support will make the difference, but it's certainly a big X-factor.

If PRC attacks Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and US will be unavoidable to get involved. If Intel is trying to play the national security card on concerns about China, South Korea is not the right place for Intel to put more chips in.

 

[blueone]

If PRC attacks Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and US will be unavoidable to get involved. If Intel is trying to play the national security card on concerns about China, South Korea is not the right place for Intel to put more chips in.

I think it only takes skimming the news to see that many countries are taking China's threats seriously, and are planning on investing in "supply chain diversification" for chip production. Intel is absolutely playing the national security card, and I would if I were CEO, and South Korea is the #2 source of leading edge fabrication. Who better to partner with? I agree with Daniel in post #6.

 

[hskuo]

I would see it an IDM model of Qualcomm and Samsung. Intel is Samsung's customer and also supplier.

 

[hist78]

I think it only takes skimming the news to see that many countries are taking China's threats seriously, and are planning on investing in "supply chain diversification" for chip production. Intel is absolutely playing the national security card, and I would if I were CEO, and South Korea is the #2 source of leading edge fabrication. Who better to partner with? I agree with Daniel in post #6.

Pat Gelsinger has been repeatedly saying that too many semiconductor products are produced in Asia. How can more exposure in South Korea will reduce the concentration and risks?

Additionally if PRC attacks Taiwan, US, Japan, and South Korea will have to intervene. They will be on the same side of Taiwan if such war occurs. Why South Korea is safer than Taiwan if Pat is playing the national security card?

 

[hist78]

I started thinking a great risk Pat Gelsinger might not recognize that in two to three years there will be several leading edge fabs operated in US who are owned and operated by Intel's foreign competitors. All of them will also receive government subsidies just like Intel does.

Intel will lose the right to claim that Intel is the only US domestic and leading edge semiconductor manufacturer.

Chips made by Samsung new Texas fab or by TSMC new Arizona fab will be marked as "Made in USA". What will Intel differentiate itself from others by then?

 

[blueone]

Pat Gelsinger has been repeatedly saying that too many semiconductor products are produced in Asia. How can more exposure in South Korea will reduce the concentration and risks?

Additionally if PRC attacks Taiwan, US, Japan, and South Korea will have to intervene. They will be on the same side of Taiwan if such war occurs. Why South Korea is safer than Taiwan if Pat is playing the national security card?

This partnership isn't about exposure, it's about two players that need to improve collaborating. I just brought up the diversification ploy and government funding as a means to fund Intel's potential foundry success. My point was that I'm leery that Intel's plan would have as much of a chance for funding if not for China being bellicose.

 

[blueone]

Intel will lose the right to claim that Intel is the only US domestic and leading edge semiconductor manufacturer.

The press is already saying they're losing it with TSMC's new AZ fab.

 

[fansink]

I started thinking a great risk Pat Gelsinger might not recognize that in two to three years there will be several leading edge fabs operated in US who are owned and operated by Intel's foreign competitors. All of them will also receive government subsidies just like Intel does.

Intel will lose the right to claim that Intel is the only US domestic and leading edge semiconductor manufacturer.

Chips made by Samsung new Texas fab or by TSMC new Arizona fab will be marked as "Made in USA". What will Intel differentiate itself from others by then?

How could America not trust this face?

 

[semiman]

Semiconductor industry today sure is interesting in many ways. Really difficult to estimate the pros and cons.

- Qualcomm switches SD8Gen1+ to TSMC : Bad for Samsung Foundry(1st tier chip lost) but Good for Samsung MX(to fight Apple iPhone penetration)
- NVIDIA and Intel foundry : Strong design competitor but possible alternative foundry(foundry competition)
- TSMC and Intel : Leading-edge fab provider(now) but leading-edge fab competitor(later)
- AMD and Intel : x86 competition getting more market share but ARM penetration guard when Intel is not going well(EPYC vs Neoverse)

Samsung and Intel? Their common field is CPU and Memory relationship which might help fend off accelerator attacks but still competes in the foundry business.

 

[Daniel Nenni]

Interesting to note, Intel Foundry Services is the only foundry that will be at the Design Automation Conference in July. https://www.dac.com/
I'm looking forward to spending time with them there.

 

[hist78]

Semiconductor industry today sure is interesting in many ways. Really difficult to estimate the pros and cons.

- Qualcomm switches SD8Gen1+ to TSMC : Bad for Samsung Foundry(1st tier chip lost) but Good for Samsung MX(to fight Apple iPhone penetration)
- NVIDIA and Intel foundry : Strong design competitor but possible alternative foundry(foundry competition)
- TSMC and Intel : Leading-edge fab provider(now) but leading-edge fab competitor(later)
- AMD and Intel : x86 competition getting more market share but ARM penetration guard when Intel is not going well(EPYC vs Neoverse)

Samsung and Intel? Their common field is CPU and Memory relationship which might help fend off accelerator attacks but still competes in the foundry business.

Samsung uses quite a few MediaTek chips (manufactured by TSMC) for Samsung budget to midrange smartphones. According an old report, in 2020 Samsung bought 43.3 million smartphone processors from MediaTek. I assume this number will be even larger in 2022.

Samsung needs a lot of chips provided by TSMC's fabless customers for making smartphones, LED displays, tablets, PCs, medical devices, TVs, refrigerators, and 5G carrier network equipments. Across the whole Samsung enterprise, TSMC is really a critical and indirect Samsung partner.

Samsung helped MediaTek in becoming world's biggest smartphone chipset vendor

Samsung's use of MediaTek smartphone chipsets increased in 2020, which helped MediaTek in becoming the world's biggest smartphone chipset vendor.

www.sammobile.com

 

[M. Y. Zuo]

From game theory, three way equilibriums are pretty stable, in fact close to the most stable outcome possible short of a total monopoly.

Also spending so much effort to create the same bleeding edge foundry innovations three times already seems slightly wasteful. So it could eventually settle into an Airbus-Boeing type situation.

 

[benb]

Intel is going fab lite with the new Meteor Lake CPUs. Some tear-downs are saying it's only TSMC and Intel tiles, but that might not be correct.
;-)

Meteor Lake Die Shot and Architecture Analysis – Why Is Intel 4 Only A 40% Area Reduction Versus Intel 7?

Die shot analysis shows 40% area reduction on identical structures from Intel 7 to Intel 4. Analysis on Redwood Cove and Crestmont architecture, Foveros Omni, Intel's use of TSMC N3 in the GPU, and SOC/IO chiplets

semianalysis.substack.com