Morris Chang - China is 5 years behind. TSMC's real competitor is South Korea

[dave1]

I would like to point out that TSMC for 40+ years has benefitted from huge government subsidy from Taiwan in addition to a Huge Defense (US Taxpayer) subsidy from the US. In this same time period, the US Government largely dropped funding of Semiconductor R&D (starting for sure in the 1990's). TSMC may be ahead of Intel in 2021. IT is because the US semiconductor industry has not been provided with R&D, job training, or educational resources afforded to Taiwan.

In the history of the US, we have been a giving and generous people. In regard to TSMC, Taiwan, and our Asian brothers and sisters, the US has been very generous with education, foreign defense support, and on the job training when you guys worked here. Please Morris, do not forget, you benefitted from an excellent education and work experience in the US before starting TSMC. We are pleased that you succeeded. Please please softly admit all contributions to TSMCs success. Instead of making a speech stating why Taiwan is superior (as this sounds racist) and further stating that there will be difficulty in the US regarding engineers and staffing for manufacturing, I would instead like to hear Morris say, "Thank you".

Soon Taiwan will be invaded by Mainland China. TSMC and life in Taiwan as we know it today will be lost. War itself will do much to reverse all gains and the leadership position of TSMC over the US and South Korea. Today, the US offers "a lifeline" and "phone a friend" by offering fab sites in Arizona. My suggestion is that instead of making an arrogant speech regarding why it is that Taiwan is 'better' than the US, that TSMC start to embrace the lifeline the US offers, and transition to the US. Certainly part of this transition should be human resource support to benefit your own factories as well as the entire US and World semiconductor ecosystem. TSMC should make educational support, job training programs, and friendly support of small company R&D part of its opening of its US facility. Finally, I would encourage TSMC to -not make- the mistakes Foxconn made in WI that were to accept large State and Local subsidy and then to actually decide to expand in Asia instead of the US.

If TSMC handles the opening if their fab correctly to include human capital investment and training at multiple levels, and actually does hire and train US people, they will be thankful and work for you. Note that when Foxconn hired people in November and laid-them-off in January just to meet year-end job goals required to receive incentive in the State of WI, Foxconn burned many bridges and converted good will of the local people to loathing.

The US still contains some of the very best semiconductor technologists, physicists, and engineers in the world. Taiwan has achieved its status today through consistent access to resources a sound defense for which it does not pay for, and hard work. I would encourage TSMC management to be more humble and thankful in their tone and eschew less venom toward the US, and unlike FoxConn actually make something of the opportunity presented to TSMC in AZ. Soon, mainland China will overtake Taiwan. If war destroys Taiwan itself, all that TSMC gains will potentially be destroyed. So politely Morris, please tread lightly in your speeches, remember your great ally, and repay our kindness with reasonable action.

 

[Jert]

I would like to point out that TSMC for 40+ years has benefitted from huge government subsidy from Taiwan in addition to a Huge Defense (US Taxpayer) subsidy from the US. In this same time period, the US Government largely dropped funding of Semiconductor R&D (starting for sure in the 1990's). TSMC may be ahead of Intel in 2021. IT is because the US semiconductor industry has not been provided with R&D, job training, or educational resources afforded to Taiwan.

In the history of the US, we have been a giving and generous people. In regard to TSMC, Taiwan, and our Asian brothers and sisters, the US has been very generous with education, foreign defense support, and on the job training when you guys worked here. Please Morris, do not forget, you benefitted from an excellent education and work experience in the US before starting TSMC. We are pleased that you succeeded. Please please softly admit all contributions to TSMCs success. Instead of making a speech stating why Taiwan is superior (as this sounds racist) and further stating that there will be difficulty in the US regarding engineers and staffing for manufacturing, I would instead like to hear Morris say, "Thank you".

Soon Taiwan will be invaded by Mainland China. TSMC and life in Taiwan as we know it today will be lost. War itself will do much to reverse all gains and the leadership position of TSMC over the US and South Korea. Today, the US offers "a lifeline" and "phone a friend" by offering fab sites in Arizona. My suggestion is that instead of making an arrogant speech regarding why it is that Taiwan is 'better' than the US, that TSMC start to embrace the lifeline the US offers, and transition to the US. Certainly part of this transition should be human resource support to benefit your own factories as well as the entire US and World semiconductor ecosystem. TSMC should make educational support, job training programs, and friendly support of small company R&D part of its opening of its US facility. Finally, I would encourage TSMC to -not make- the mistakes Foxconn made in WI that were to accept large State and Local subsidy and then to actually decide to expand in Asia instead of the US.

If TSMC handles the opening if their fab correctly to include human capital investment and training at multiple levels, and actually does hire and train US people, they will be thankful and work for you. Note that when Foxconn hired people in November and laid-them-off in January just to meet year-end job goals required to receive incentive in the State of WI, Foxconn burned many bridges and converted good will of the local people to loathing.

The US still contains some of the very best semiconductor technologists, physicists, and engineers in the world. Taiwan has achieved its status today through consistent access to resources a sound defense for which it does not pay for, and hard work. I would encourage TSMC management to be more humble and thankful in their tone and eschew less venom toward the US, and unlike FoxConn actually make something of the opportunity presented to TSMC in AZ. Soon, mainland China will overtake Taiwan. If war destroys Taiwan itself, all that TSMC gains will potentially be destroyed. So politely Morris, please tread lightly in your speeches, remember your great ally, and repay our kindness with reasonable action.

Well said Dave!! TSMC is overdue to get going on some sort of dual track or parallel paths in both Taiwan and in the US. It will be an necessary act to continue as a responsible citizen of Taiwan, but also as a responsible citizen to the world because the modern global economy depends on chips which depends on TSMC's stability. A military conflict in and around Taiwan is no longer an "if" but a "when" or "how soon" because China now finally and arrogantly feel it can. Can we imagine the disruption to the global economy if all TSMC fabs in Taiwan shuts down tomorrow because of missile threats?

 

[Lorien]

I would like to point out that TSMC for 40+ years has benefitted from huge government subsidy from Taiwan in addition to a Huge Defense (US Taxpayer) subsidy from the US. In this same time period, the US Government largely dropped funding of Semiconductor R&D (starting for sure in the 1990's). TSMC may be ahead of Intel in 2021. IT is because the US semiconductor industry has not been provided with R&D, job training, or educational resources afforded to Taiwan.

In the history of the US, we have been a giving and generous people. In regard to TSMC, Taiwan, and our Asian brothers and sisters, the US has been very generous with education, foreign defense support, and on the job training when you guys worked here. Please Morris, do not forget, you benefitted from an excellent education and work experience in the US before starting TSMC. We are pleased that you succeeded. Please please softly admit all contributions to TSMCs success. Instead of making a speech stating why Taiwan is superior (as this sounds racist) and further stating that there will be difficulty in the US regarding engineers and staffing for manufacturing, I would instead like to hear Morris say, "Thank you".

Soon Taiwan will be invaded by Mainland China. TSMC and life in Taiwan as we know it today will be lost. War itself will do much to reverse all gains and the leadership position of TSMC over the US and South Korea. Today, the US offers "a lifeline" and "phone a friend" by offering fab sites in Arizona. My suggestion is that instead of making an arrogant speech regarding why it is that Taiwan is 'better' than the US, that TSMC start to embrace the lifeline the US offers, and transition to the US. Certainly part of this transition should be human resource support to benefit your own factories as well as the entire US and World semiconductor ecosystem. TSMC should make educational support, job training programs, and friendly support of small company R&D part of its opening of its US facility. Finally, I would encourage TSMC to -not make- the mistakes Foxconn made in WI that were to accept large State and Local subsidy and then to actually decide to expand in Asia instead of the US.

If TSMC handles the opening if their fab correctly to include human capital investment and training at multiple levels, and actually does hire and train US people, they will be thankful and work for you. Note that when Foxconn hired people in November and laid-them-off in January just to meet year-end job goals required to receive incentive in the State of WI, Foxconn burned many bridges and converted good will of the local people to loathing.

The US still contains some of the very best semiconductor technologists, physicists, and engineers in the world. Taiwan has achieved its status today through consistent access to resources a sound defense for which it does not pay for, and hard work. I would encourage TSMC management to be more humble and thankful in their tone and eschew less venom toward the US, and unlike FoxConn actually make something of the opportunity presented to TSMC in AZ. Soon, mainland China will overtake Taiwan. If war destroys Taiwan itself, all that TSMC gains will potentially be destroyed. So politely Morris, please tread lightly in your speeches, remember your great ally, and repay our kindness with reasonable action.

wow, where to even begin.

first off, the US funnels aids to countries like South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc. for the same reason it funnels tons of money to Israel: in the interest of its own national security and geopolitical influence. if you think the US is so charitable, may be ask yourself why it isn't giving more money to the REALLY poor countries in Africa and South America. the countries that receive the most US aids are already financially well-off and do not need a helping hand.

really sick of this nonsensical jingoism on a tech discussion forum.

and no, Taiwan isn't getting invaded by China anytime soon. anyone who thinks so is simply demonstrating their sheer ignorance of the delicate and nuanced politics in the region. neither side is actually worried about warfare but they have to keep up the political showmanship. if China wanted to invade Taiwan they could have easily done so anytime in the past 40 years. nobody is under the illusion that the US would drag itself into a war with China over Taiwan. I grew up in Taiwan in the 80's/90's when ties with the US was a lot stronger yet that was already the general sentiment.

the only reason China hasn't invaded is because it has more to lose than to gain. Taiwan is not just a linchpin in the global tech sector but the economies of China and Taiwan are very deeply entwined. some of the largest foreign investors and manufacturers in China are Taiwanese. if a war breaks out the Chinese economy can easily implode.

both sides are inwardly perfectly happy to maintain the status quo indefinitely, though publicly China has to keep insisting Taiwan is a party of China and Taiwan has to keep saying it's an independent territory. like I said, showmanship to placate political bases and to look good on the global stage.

only people who don't get it are Westerners reading The Economist.

and no, the US is not a "leader" in tech and innovation - one could argue it never was. a country cannot take credit for the accomplishments of its private citizens. China can say it built 40000km of high speed rail because the government actually took the initiative to do so. If SpaceX became the first entity to establish a colony on Mars, Americans don't get to wave their little flags and say "Yay USA first!!!" - nope, just Elon Musk first, that's it. and look at how many big US tech companies are headed by foreigners - AMD and Nvidia both have Taiwanese CEOs, Google is headed by an Indian, and it's not just the executives; go onto the campus of any tech company and I can guarantee you like half of engineers and software developers are Indians, Chinese/Taiwanese, etc. - many are first generation immigrants with heavy accents, yet they work in the most prestigious companies making the highest wages.

why? because they came from cultures that prize education and hard work. American youth are obsessed over reality TV, social media, football, etc. and the American government continues to let our infrastructure crumple, let poor people die on the streets, let gun violence run rampant, let hospitals charge people $500 for simple visit.

before you say I am racist, it's not about race. it's about cultural attitude and priorities. some countries do things for their people. the US does everything for money. the greediness of the American system is very apparent to a lot of foreigners, and I think that's what Morris Chang was talking about. it's true that American public infrastructure sucks and work ethics are very different compared to how things are in Asia. instead of having a reactionary mindset to the criticism Chang offered, I feel it may be worth reflecting upon. because I feel America has reached a stage where the Oroboro that is Capitalism is finally eating itself.

 

[tooLongInEDA]

wow, where to even begin.

first off, the US funnels aids to countries like South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc. for the same reason it funnels tons of money to Israel: in the interest of its own national security and geopolitical influence. if you think the US is so charitable, may be ask yourself why it isn't giving more money to the REALLY poor countries in Africa and South America. the countries that receive the most US aids are already financially well-off and do not need a helping hand.

really sick of this nonsensical jingoism on a tech discussion forum.

and no, Taiwan isn't getting invaded by China anytime soon. anyone who thinks so is simply demonstrating their sheer ignorance of the delicate and nuanced politics in the region. neither side is actually worried about warfare but they have to keep up the political showmanship. if China wanted to invade Taiwan they could have easily done so anytime in the past 40 years. nobody is under the illusion that the US would drag itself into a war with China over Taiwan. I grew up in Taiwan in the 80's/90's when ties with the US was a lot stronger yet that was already the general sentiment.

the only reason China hasn't invaded is because it has more to lose than to gain. Taiwan is not just a linchpin in the global tech sector but the economies of China and Taiwan are very deeply entwined. some of the largest foreign investors and manufacturers in China are Taiwanese. if a war breaks out the Chinese economy can easily implode.

both sides are inwardly perfectly happy to maintain the status quo indefinitely, though publicly China has to keep insisting Taiwan is a party of China and Taiwan has to keep saying it's an independent territory. like I said, showmanship to placate political bases and to look good on the global stage.

only people who don't get it are Westerners reading The Economist.

and no, the US is not a "leader" in tech and innovation - one could argue it never was. a country cannot take credit for the accomplishments of its private citizens. China can say it built 40000km of high speed rail because the government actually took the initiative to do so. If SpaceX became the first entity to establish a colony on Mars, Americans don't get to wave their little flags and say "Yay USA first!!!" - nope, just Elon Musk first, that's it. and look at how many big US tech companies are headed by foreigners - AMD and Nvidia both have Taiwanese CEOs, Google is headed by an Indian, and it's not just the executives; go onto the campus of any tech company and I can guarantee you like half of engineers and software developers are Indians, Chinese/Taiwanese, etc. - many are first generation immigrants with heavy accents, yet they work in the most prestigious companies making the highest wages.

why? because they came from cultures that prize education and hard work. American youth are obsessed over reality TV, social media, football, etc. and the American government continues to let our infrastructure crumple, let poor people die on the streets, let gun violence run rampant, let hospitals charge people $500 for simple visit.

before you say I am racist, it's not about race. it's about cultural attitude and priorities. some countries do things for their people. the US does everything for money. the greediness of the American system is very apparent to a lot of foreigners, and I think that's what Morris Chang was talking about. it's true that American public infrastructure sucks and work ethics are very different compared to how things are in Asia. instead of having a reactionary mindset to the criticism Chang offered, I feel it may be worth reflecting upon. because I feel America has reached a stage where the Oroboro that is Capitalism is finally eating itself.

You make some interesting points.

"It's about cultural attitude and priorities". Agreed. Your attitude is not (for me) in the slightest bit "racist" - whatever that actually means these days. As an engineer, I'm wary of using undefined terms - and this is one there is no proper definition of these days.

"Imminent invasion" of Taiwan. I've never been to Taiwan. I don't know and don't claim to know what the future holds here. Your argument is interesting and has at least some plausibility. In the UK, we have a similar situation with Northern Ireland. In theory, the Republic of Ireland want these 6 counties back in a unified Ireland. In practice, they're doing just fine right now without it and probably don't want the boatload of problems they'll get if they could take it on.

"and no, the US is not a "leader" in tech and innovation". I think you've got this one completely wrong though. The point here is that the US is a free and open society that encourages innovation - and always has done. It welcomes talent from all over the world - doesn't care who the innovators are. Let's remember that almost all these overseas engineers who make it to the US do stay in the US. There is a global "brain drain" of talent to the US. Two of my undergrad friends (one from Hong Kong, the other from Singapore) went straight to the US for PhDs. Over thirty years on they're still there.

My Singaporean friend also made the observation that while the Americans weren't any smarter, they did know how to put in a hard day's work. There are many countries where people only "work to live" and leisure is prioritised way ahead of work. From my experience the US - together with Taiwan, Korea, etc is not in that group.

 

[Lorien]

"and no, the US is not a "leader" in tech and innovation". I think you've got this one completely wrong though. The point here is that the US is a free and open society that encourages innovation - and always has done. It welcomes talent from all over the world - doesn't care who the innovators are. Let's remember that almost all these overseas engineers who make it to the US do stay in the US. There is a global "brain drain" of talent to the US. Two of my undergrad friends (one from Hong Kong, the other from Singapore) went straight to the US for PhDs. Over thirty years on they're still there.

thanks for the thoughtful response. I think on this point may be I should clarify a bit.

the U.S. is a very Darwinism system both in the economic sense and the social sense. Republican politicians and their rich donors love the free market system and yes, such a system can be conducive to innovation when there is money to be made. but it's a problem when it comes to issues that require solutions but don't offer an economic incentive. that's why our freeways and dams and crumbling even while Apple makes billions of dollars coming out with new iPhones ever year; why NASA had to abandon the space shuttle program and SpaceX took over.

the justification is always the same: private sector is more "innovative" and "efficient" than government bureaucracy. yeah, it can be - in so far as reducing cost and increasing profit margins, that's for sure. it didn't always translate to societal well-being. they like to point to how Pentagon spends $60 on a lightbulb while ignoring the fact that our private healthcare makes you pay $300 for a single 1-month refill of Prozac.

In the 1960's, during the height of the Cold War, the US had a national incentive to invest in education and science and technology because we needed to stay ahead of Russia. NASA's annual budget was nearly 5% of Federal budget. today it is a fraction of a percent, and austerity measures as results of tax cuts for the rich means ever shrinking budget for public schools.

in a lot of Asian countries, education and knowledge is viewed as paramount because it guarantees societal success. this attitude exists in both the citizenry and the government, such that the government still heavily invests in education, science, and technology. for a long time, "catching up with the West" may be part of the driving force of that, sure, but now many Asian countries have caught up and may be even surpassed the US technologically, they aren't showing any sign of slowing down due to complacency - because that value for education and science is ingrained into the cultural mindset.

China is renowned (or notorious, depending on your perspective) for centralized economic planning, propping up and subsidizing entire industries heavily if it feels it needs to advance in those areas. their authoritarian form of governance is actually an advantage in this regard in that they can move move their entire state machinery and pivot priorities very quickly (they also don't mind stealing intellectual property from all over the world but that's a separate topic on its own).

In this regard, if China were to achieve some scientific or technological greatness because it's government issued a directive to make it happen, yeah, sure, it can take credit for that. The US on the other hand is a money-driven society where greatness tends to only happen when the market demands it, not because of government directives. that's why I say it can't claim leadership (as in: taking credit for it as a country) in tech and innovation, because the government has nothing to do with it (one exception being military tech, and the reason we pump so much money into that is obvious).

I mean, heck, California, which by itself is the 15th largest economy in the world, still can't build a high speed rail to connect its northern and southern halves. when there's no money to be made, we can't get anything done.

but yes, a lot of foreigners do come to the US to work on the tech sector - because well, when you have good education, it pays well - and understandably so when Apple & Amazon are each worth over $2 trillion. again, nothing to do with the US government being generous or visionary or anything like that. just rich companies hiring skilled workers from overseas so they can keep growing by making more smartphones and more apps and then the investors are happy and pour more money in and Jeff and Elon get to buy another yacht, so on and so forth.

 

[smeyer0028]

You make some interesting points.

"It's about cultural attitude and priorities". Agreed. Your attitude is not (for me) in the slightest bit "racist" - whatever that actually means these days. As an engineer, I'm wary of using undefined terms - and this is one there is no proper definition of these days.

"Imminent invasion" of Taiwan. I've never been to Taiwan. I don't know and don't claim to know what the future holds here. Your argument is interesting and has at least some plausibility. In the UK, we have a similar situation with Northern Ireland. In theory, the Republic of Ireland want these 6 counties back in a unified Ireland. In practice, they're doing just fine right now without it and probably don't want the boatload of problems they'll get if they could take it on.

"and no, the US is not a "leader" in tech and innovation". I think you've got this one completely wrong though. The point here is that the US is a free and open society that encourages innovation - and always has done. It welcomes talent from all over the world - doesn't care who the innovators are. Let's remember that almost all these overseas engineers who make it to the US do stay in the US. There is a global "brain drain" of talent to the US. Two of my undergrad friends (one from Hong Kong, the other from Singapore) went straight to the US for PhDs. Over thirty years on they're still there.

My Singaporean friend also made the observation that while the Americans weren't any smarter, they did know how to put in a hard day's work. There are many countries where people only "work to live" and leisure is prioritised way ahead of work. From my experience the US - together with Taiwan, Korea, etc is not in that group.

I think my question is relevant to your post. I noticed that cell
maker Xiaomi has 10% world wide and 30% India market
share. It was just removed from the US sanctions list.
I assume there is a world wide cell supply chain. Where are
the Xiami SOCs fabbed? Where does the IP come from?
Is the Arm CPU Taiwanese or US? Does Xiami need to
license Android from Google?

 

[tooLongInEDA]

I think my question is relevant to your post. I noticed that cell
maker Xiaomi has 10% world wide and 30% India market
share. It was just removed from the US sanctions list.
I assume there is a world wide cell supply chain. Where are
the Xiami SOCs fabbed? Where does the IP come from?
Is the Arm CPU Taiwanese or US? Does Xiami need to
license Android from Google?

Sorry, I know little about this. A quick web search suggests that Xiaomi is still using Qualcomm Snapdragon for the mobile app processor (main SoC). Perhaps that (buying a key component from a US company) is less disagreeable to the US than Huawei using their own SoC ... . Qualcomm SoC will be fabbed by Samsung or TSMC (no one else can build on the required process today).